Working as a Crown - Answering Questions

[N. Mink]

@Thrive92 LOL, NO. 

I just sidled up to the office and turned on the charm. May not work if you’re not particularly charming, of course. 

1 minute ago, Hegdis said:

Every legal aid office has some one that needs help right now, or is a difficult client generally, or who just needs a goddamn lawyer to walk by and be available for five minutes. Be the lawyer who checks in, says hello, helps some one out in the moment without getting paid. Do a good turn and you're going to get it back tenfold.

Aside from being just decent behaviour, it gives you a good reputation with the people on the ground. They are the ones who have the power to point clients to you.

100% this.

I definitely took some clients that more experienced counsel wouldn’t (or couldn’t any longer) represent.  

[Hegdis]

I should mention that Crown are also a good source of clients, believe it or not. If they're running a crazy bail court, and some one in the back is turning themselves in on a warrant but is visibly nodding off or tweaking or looking like they are going to bolt, Crown are going to be scanning the room for defence who can just stand up and get the file moving along. From there, if you can't land a client, you're in the wrong practise.

 

[Thrive92]

5 minutes ago, N. Mink said:

I just sidled up to the office and turned on the charm. May not work if you’re not particularly charming, of course. 

6 minutes ago, Hegdis said:

Every legal aid office has some one that needs help right now, or is a difficult client generally, or who just needs a goddamn lawyer to walk by and be available for five minutes. Be the lawyer who checks in, says hello, helps some one out in the moment without getting paid. Do a good turn and you're going to get it back tenfold.

2 minutes ago, Hegdis said:

I should mention that Crown are also a good source of clients, believe it or not. If they're running a crazy bail court, and some one in the back is turning themselves in on a warrant but is visibly nodding off or tweaking or looking like they are going to bolt, Crown are going to be scanning the room for defence who can just stand up and get the file moving along. From there, if you can't land a client, you're in the wrong practise.

 

I can do this.

Although I am not particularly charming, I have a crushing need to be liked and accepted, going out of my way to get an attaboy.

Thank god that I dont have to bribe.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Thrive92

[CleanHands]

5 minutes ago, realpseudonym said:

I think regardless of jurisdiction, that this is important. Looking at the amount you can potentially bill is just that: potential. You have to get the work first, before you can do the case and bill it out. Once you have a lot of work, you can bill a lot, even to Legal Aid. But building your reputation to the point where people want you to be their lawyer (or working for another lawyer) is the key part, and the challenge in starting any practice. 

You're absolutely right about building a practice being a daunting grind (and to be clear I don't have the experience of having done it yet so the value of my input here is limited), but I do disagree with the "regardless of jurisdiction" and the "any practice" aspect of this post.

If someone wants to start off in Toronto or Vancouver that is going to be a struggle in an oversaturated market. But there are places where there are too many files and not enough lawyers. The first defence lawyers to employ me got called in Saskatchewan when starting out so they could immediately get work and even take on even the sort of serious, high-complexity files that one needs to be a 10 year call in BC to get (with mentors to lean on at the early stages, of course). They advised me that if I was willing to go there after getting called I'd have clients lining up at the door and could have a house bought and paid for in a few years. It's a path I've been tempted to pursue.

[123]

1 minute ago, CleanHands said:

do disagree with the "regardless of jurisdiction" and the "any practice" aspect of this post.

If someone wants to start off in Toronto or Vancouver that is going to be a struggle in an oversaturated market. But there are places where there are too many files and not enough lawyers. The first defence lawyers to employ me got called in Saskatchewan when starting out so they could immediately get work and even take on even the sort of serious, high-complexity files that one needs to be a 10 year call in BC to get (with mentors to lean on at the early stages, of course). They advised me that if I was willing to go there after getting called I'd have clients lining up at the door and could have a house bought and paid for in a few years. It's a path I've been tempted to pursue.

I agree. I didn’t mean to imply that there’s a uniform level of difficulty in building a practice. Just that finding clients is always a prerequisite to being able to bill out work. Regardless of whether it’s by choosing an underserved client base, getting in good with legal admins, connecting with other lawyers, etc, you need to have clients. Which is pretty self-evident, but I just wanted to note that the “how much can you bill” question puts the cart before the horse. 

[ltmaverick25]

Just curious what the going hourly rate would be for criminal lawyers now. 

1. What is the average a sole practitioner charges by the hour? I understand its different in each market, and / or depending on how many years of experience. So feel free to indicate the market and years practicing.

2. Same question but for criminal lawyers working in a firm. Small / Mid / Large.

3. Do criminal lawyers charge exclusively based on hourly billing? Is there some special bonus for winning, or obtaining favorable outcomes?

4. If you were a sole practitioner, or running your own small firm, what is the ideal support staff you would want to have in place? 1 paralegal, 2? admin assistants etc.. Yes I know you wont be able to afford any of the above at first. I'm still curious what you would want to have if you could.

[BlockedQuebecois]

10 minutes ago, ltmaverick25 said:

3. Do criminal lawyers charge exclusively based on hourly billing? Is there some special bonus for winning, or obtaining favorable outcomes?

In Ontario, this would be viewed as a contingency fee and would violate the rules of professional conduct. I suspect the same is true in all other Canadian jurisdictions. 

Alternative fee arrangements, such as a flat rate for certain charges, would generally be fine, so long as they are fair and reasonable. 

Edited March 12, 2023 by BlockedQuebecois

[123]

21 minutes ago, ltmaverick25 said:

1. What is the average a sole practitioner charges by the hour? I understand its different in each market, and / or depending on how many years of experience. So feel free to indicate the market and years practicing.

2. Same question but for criminal lawyers working in a firm. Small / Mid / Large.

It’s anything from around $100 per hour to god knows what. 

I’m not prepared to post my rates here, but I’ll say that my rate wasn’t the barrier to getting paid early on. It was the client running out of money. The clients available to most junior defence lawyers usually (a) are legal aid clients or (b) have limited funds. LAO has limits to the hours you can bill on a file. The private clients might be willing to pay whatever per hour, but if they only have $4000.00, it didn’t matter if I was billing at $200.00 per hour or $400.00 per hour. I usually had to make do with the money available. Which is why a lot of lawyers will use flat fee or block fee billing for some matters. 

[ltmaverick25]

3 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

In Ontario, this would be viewed as a contingency fee and would violate the rules of professional conduct. I suspect the same is true in all other Canadian jurisdictions. 

Alternative fee arrangements, such as a flat rate for certain charges, would generally be fine, so long as they are fair and reasonable. 

I'm assuming this is exclusive to criminal law?

[LMP]

1 minute ago, ltmaverick25 said:

I'm assuming this is exclusive to criminal law?

Quasi-Criminal and family law too (at least in Ontario). 

[krokatron]

How easily can someone who works for Ontario MAG - Criminal, relocate within Ontario? For example, can one Article in Toronto, and then seamlessly transition to working in Northern Ontario/ (i.e. Sudbury or Thunder Bay) after articles finish (still within Ontario MAG - Criminal)? 

Basically - what is mobility like within MAG? 

[BHC1]

On 1/28/2024 at 12:26 PM, krokatron said:

How easily can someone who works for Ontario MAG - Criminal, relocate within Ontario? For example, can one Article in Toronto, and then seamlessly transition to working in Northern Ontario/ (i.e. Sudbury or Thunder Bay) after articles finish (still within Ontario MAG - Criminal)? 

Basically - what is mobility like within MAG? 

I’m with the federal government so take this with a grain of salt - this is all stuff I’ve heard from other Crowns. Mobility within MAG is pretty high during the early stages of your career. Articling students are placed in a hire back pool where they a long with other ALOC/OCAA members and per diem Crowns are given hiring priority for most advertised positions. I believe the hiring priority lasts for 2 years for articling students, and is around 12 to 18 months for lawyers whose contracts have expired. It’s not unheard of during leaner years for students who articled in the GTA to end up in Thunder Bay or Sudbury for their first 12-month contract, then end up back in the GTA for their 3rd contract. 

[krokatron]

I am wondering if someone could clarify for me how much Crowns actually work - i.e. what they do in a day, and what the concomitant work hour obligations are with respect to those tasks? (Either at the PPSC or the MAG).

I have often heard that prosecutors across Canada are overworked, stressed, and spread too thin, however I am currently being taught by a number of Adjunct Professors across a number of courses - all of whom are Crowns, all of whom somehow make the time to lecture students twice a week, for 3 hours at a time each, AND do all the lecture prep that requires...AND make themselves periodically available for office hours. Somedays they say "I've been in trial all day, lets get started quickly..."

So I'm wondering....what is the work obligation really like as a Prosecutor? 

[CleanHands]

1 hour ago, krokatron said:

I am wondering if someone could clarify for me how much Crowns actually work - i.e. what they do in a day, and what the concomitant work hour obligations are with respect to those tasks? (Either at the PPSC or the MAG).

I have often heard that prosecutors across Canada are overworked, stressed, and spread too thin, however I am currently being taught by a number of Adjunct Professors across a number of courses - all of whom are Crowns, all of whom somehow make the time to lecture students twice a week, for 3 hours at a time each, AND do all the lecture prep that requires...AND make themselves periodically available for office hours. Somedays they say "I've been in trial all day, lets get started quickly..."

So I'm wondering....what is the work obligation really like as a Prosecutor? 

Extremely varied and extremely inconsistent.

The workload is relentless, you constantly have to prep trials, constantly have to provide resolution offers to defence, deal with random inquiries, research issues whenever you get the chance.

The degree to which you can keep on top of this and to which it's manageable depends on what your court schedule looks like. You will typically be in court 2-4 days a week (and 2 vs 4 is a HUGE difference).

When you are in full-week superior court trials, honestly the court work isn't as bad as having as many days in docket and mixed low complexity trial days where you are stickhandling 500 files in a week instead of focusing on 1, however either way your attention is fully occupied in court 9 to 5 but all the other stuff doesn't stop and you can put in work in the evenings and on weekends or suffer later.

You will get weeks where multiday trials are scheduled and resolve or collapse at the last minute, creating time to work on other things.

Litigation is incredibly unpredictable. Some crown offices are busier than others. You don't know when particularly complex/high profile cases will come in (and even if you aren't working on them, you are picking up more work to compensate for colleagues working on them). Sometimes a given office will be well staffed and other times they will have turnover and everyone will be swamped for a while.

Quite franky, there are ways to take shortcuts and ways to do the job properly that are time-consuming, and your level of diligence will also hugely affect the work hours. When you are newer and less experienced it will take much longer to do the same work. If you want to be prepared and not look stupid in court that will require more hours put in, but you can get away with less if you don't care.

So...sometimes it's a 9 to 5 job, sometimes it's very much not, and it's unpredictable and anyone who wants to give you a precise answer is full of shit.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2024 by CleanHands

[SNAILS]

Is there a way to get past the "ALOC/OCAA members" only thing? I have seen Crown jobs come up, but I did not apply since I assumed someone in the priority hire back pool would get the job.

I am aware that there are some remote northern jobs that come up sometimes that are open to non-"priority hire back" people.

[TommyBratton]

On 9/28/2024 at 6:02 AM, SNAILS said:

Is there a way to get past the "ALOC/OCAA members" only thing? I have seen Crown jobs come up, but I did not apply since I assumed someone in the priority hire back pool would get the job.

I am aware that there are some remote northern jobs that come up sometimes that are open to non-"priority hire back" people.

To put it bluntly, that's the whole point of the "ALOC/OCAA members" thing, the hiring pool ensures that hiring competitions must look internally within the OPS before an external candidate is hired. We can argue if it's fair or not, but the two associations (which are basically unions) negotiated for these job protections as part of the bargaining agreement for Ontario government lawyers. 

I articled with MAG so I was on the hireback pool, but the workaround I've seen is to secure an emergency contract that gets you onto the hiring pool. Your options are either those remote northern jobs that are open due to lack of interest (they couldn't fill it internally so that's why they are hiring non ALOC/OCAA members) OR you get a temporary contract. These temporary contracts will almost always be for criminal positions, I know several people who get short-term contracts with Crown Law offices by networking their way in. I don't think you'd be able to do this for MAG Civil positions. 

[Naj]

On 4/9/2024 at 4:35 AM, BHC1 said:

Mobility within MAG is pretty high during the early stages of your career. Articling students are placed in a hire back pool where they a long with other ALOC/OCAA members and per diem Crowns are given hiring priority for most advertised positions. I believe the hiring priority lasts for 2 years for articling students, and is around 12 to 18 months for lawyers whose contracts have expired. It’s not unheard of during leaner years for students who articled in the GTA to end up in Thunder Bay or Sudbury for their first 12-month contract, then end up back in the GTA for their 3rd contract. 

Can you clarify whether an office-specific priority exists? I.e, where an internal applicant applying for a position at a particular office receives preference or priority over other internal applicants because his/her previous or current position was at that office (where other internal applicants were not)?

Edited May 29 by Naj

[BHC1]

That’s something I do not know. Wouldn’t want to mislead you by giving you nothing more than a guess. 

18 hours ago, Naj said:

Can you clarify whether an office-specific priority exists? I.e, where an internal applicant applying for a position at a particular office receives preference or priority over other internal applicants because his/her previous or current position was at that office (where other internal applicants were not)?