NCA OCI for Vancouver and Calgary!!

[goonersfc]

I didn't know this until today but apparently firms in Calgary and Vancouver have followed Toronto's suit and have started Summer OCIs for NCA people. Today was their call day and I have received texts from atleast 10-15 of such candidates who have received calls for interview today from these firms, mostly (if not all) form BigLaw firms. 

Now, not to sound xenophobic but many of these people have 10-12 years of experience in their countries, and they are applying for a summer position. There's NO WAY Canadian law student, who have just finished 1 year of their law education can compete with them. Not just years of experience, but most of them get a master's degree as a source furthering their stay in the country (I think we all know the way in which Osgoode has been dishing out their 'OsgoodePD' LLMs left, right and centre). 

It just makes me scared of the upcoming law students, with a plethora of student debt and years of struggle to get into the law schools. I think it would be equally wrong to suggest that NCA OCI shouldn't be a thing. But, all I am saying is why don't Law Societies establish some basic eligibility requirement. For instance, you can't apply for a Summer position if you have more than 2-3 years experience as a lawyer?

[BlockedQuebecois]

You were a 1L hire at a Toronto big law firm and this is a concern you actually have? After two summers at a firm, you haven’t figured out the business models of these firms, the type of students they target, and why this is a dumb question? 

[Darth Vader]

2-3+ years experience as a lawyer is very different from having Canadian work experience. Many of these people need to work to provide for themselves and their families, and to build experience for their immigration applications. Who are you or I to lock these people out of jobs just because you are afraid to compete with them in the job market? The fact that there is increased competition in the job market is irrelevant. No one owes law students anything. People should do their own research and determine if going to law school is a viable path for them. 

[PalomaBlanca]

[goonersfc]

6 hours ago, Darth Vader said:

2-3+ years experience as a lawyer is very different from having Canadian work experience. Many of these people need to work to provide for themselves and their families, and to build experience for their immigration applications. Who are you or I to lock these people out of jobs just because you are afraid to compete with them in the job market? The fact that there is increased competition in the job market is irrelevant. No one owes law students anything. People should do their own research and determine if going to law school is a viable path for them. 

Fair Enough! I'll raise my hand and admit that my comments were gratuitous and come across as rather awful. Would delete them, if I could. Maybe I got a bit overwhelmed by answering a huge number of largely similar Linkedin texts, where lawyers with 10-12 years of experience were asking a 3L for career advice. 

[hiya]

On 8/27/2021 at 3:51 PM, goonersfc said:

There's NO WAY Canadian law student, who have just finished 1 year of their law education can compete with them. Not just years of experience, but most of them get a master's degree as a source furthering their stay in the country (I think we all know the way in which Osgoode has been dishing out their 'OsgoodePD' LLMs left, right and centre). 

It just makes me scared of the upcoming law students, with a plethora of student debt and years of struggle to get into the law schools. I think it would be equally wrong to suggest that NCA OCI shouldn't be a thing. But, all I am saying is why don't Law Societies establish some basic eligibility requirement. For instance, you can't apply for a Summer position if you have more than 2-3 years experience as a lawyer?

This is a really bad take ngl, and it's mostly because of your assumption that foreign trained lawyers are always regarded more highly than 2L JD students. Nothing could have been further from the truth. NCA candidates / foreign trained lawyers have it so much worse because:

 

1. only a handful of firms participate in NCA OCI's, while the rest of the law firms (which is the majority) only consider JD students

2. law firms usually want students who are still fresh in law school because they can easily be molded and trained the way law firms want them to.

 

i'd recommend actually speaking to NCA candidates to find out the difference in opportunities that NCA candidates have as opposed to JD students. maybe then you'll be more relieved.

[BlockedQuebecois]

1 hour ago, hiya said:

1. only a handful of firms participate in NCA OCI's, while the rest of the law firms (which is the majority) only consider JD students

Honestly, you’re right in terms of number of employers, but not really in terms of quality. The list of employers who participate in the NCA recruit is essentially a list of employers who participate in the 2L recruit that I would consider working at:

Quote

Bennett Jones LLP

Blake, Cassels & Graydon LLP

Borden Ladner Gervais LLP (BLG)

Cassel Brock & Blackwell LLP

Davies Ward Phillips & Vineberg LLP

Department of Justice Canada (DOJ)

Fasken Martineau DuMoulin LLP

Goodmans LLP

Gowling WLG (Canada) LLP

MAG Crown Law Office Criminal (CLOC)

McCarthy Tétrault LLP

McMillan LLP

Norton Rose Fulbright Canada LLP

Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP

Public Prosecution Service of Canada (PPSC)

Torys LLP

WeirFoulds LLP

Wildeboer Dellelce LLP

LENCZNER SLAGHT LLP

Stikeman Elliott LLP

Paliare Roland Rosenberg Rothstein LLP 

 Fogler, Rubinoff LLP 

You’re missing a few crown offices I would join, but otherwise all the usual suspects are there. 

[goonersfc]

2 hours ago, hiya said:

law firms usually want students who are still fresh in law school because they can easily be molded and trained the way law firms want them to.

I'll take your point that my take was in fact a bad one, for more than 1 reason. But I highly doubt that the firms would go for a fresh law school grad, over someone with years of experience, be it in a different market (rest things being equal). Having spoken to quite a few NCA candidates after posting this, I understand that they face many structural issues and problems which prevents them from getting a job, not least of which are language and a relatively arcane understanding of the local culture. For instance, a few people were genuinely shocked to know that firm OCIs do not involve substantive legal questions. 

[123]

 

On 8/27/2021 at 12:51 PM, goonersfc said:

not to sound xenophobic but many of these people

Always a sure fire start to any sentence. 

[Rashabon]

On 8/28/2021 at 9:51 PM, goonersfc said:

I'll take your point that my take was in fact a bad one, for more than 1 reason. But I highly doubt that the firms would go for a fresh law school grad, over someone with years of experience, be it in a different market (rest things being equal). Having spoken to quite a few NCA candidates after posting this, I understand that they face many structural issues and problems which prevents them from getting a job, not least of which are language and a relatively arcane understanding of the local culture. For instance, a few people were genuinely shocked to know that firm OCIs do not involve substantive legal questions. 

Well then you don't understand even the basics of law firm business models nor the legal profession as a whole. 10 years of being a lawyer in a foreign jurisdiction is virtually useless unless the firm (a) wants to practice that type of law, or (b) said lawyer has client potential in that jurisdiction. If your contention were true, big law firms would have tons of NCA lawyers working for them, when that is obviously not the case.

[PalomaBlanca]

3 hours ago, Rashabon said:

Well then you don't understand even the basics of law firm business models nor the legal profession as a whole. 10 years of being a lawyer in a foreign jurisdiction is virtually useless unless the firm (a) wants to practice that type of law, or (b) said lawyer has client potential in that jurisdiction. If your contention were true, big law firms would have tons of NCA lawyers working for them, when that is obviously not the case.

I agree. The only non-Canadian foreign trained lawyers I know with years of experience in their "home" jurisdictions who hold an advantage over Canadian JDs are those with cross-border M&A drafting skills at global firms. They transition into the Canadian branch of their firm as support lawyers while they complete licensing. A second category would be foreign lawyers who, based on their backgrounds, are useful within a firm's foreign desk. All others can basically put their foreign experience in the trash and have to start over. The number of people in the latter category is no doubt insane: I saw a stat that 30% of all new bar admissions in Ontario are foreign trained lawyers (although admittedly this includes Canadians at UK/Australian law schools). Compare that number to the lawyer profiles at the big firms. OP will quickly conclude that firms do in fact go for fresh law school grads over someone with years of foreign experience.

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by PalomaBlanca
Language

[goonersfc]

On 8/30/2021 at 10:21 AM, Rashabon said:

If your contention were true, big law firms would have tons of NCA lawyers working for them, when that is obviously not the case.

i would argue that the reason why there is a lack of NCA representation in BigLaw is the makeup of NCA candidates themselves. I tried to look for numbers online, but there isn't a study that has been done on this subject. However, it's no secret that until a few years ago, majority of NCA candidates in Canada constituted of Canadian nationals going to a foreign law schools to complete their legal education (for their personal reasons) i.e, didn't have any practical experience in the field. However, if you see the recent changes in the immigration policies, it has made much easier for people to immigrate to Canada, especially lawyers (which I believe is a good thing). If you see the incredibly ambitious targets of the federal government, and combine that with the renewed Federal Skilled Workers (FSW) route to getting permanent residency in Canada, it has become much easier for a person, having a law degree, with ~3 years of work ex abroad to get Canadian PR. Add to that a possible LL.M. (or any other education in Canada for a year) and your PR is practically guaranteed. Which is why you see more and more universities now creating a separate LLM for NCA candidates or creating an alternative NCA pathway course (UoCalgary I believe has its pilot NCA program launched this year, other universities have similar programs added recently including UofT's GPLL.M., Osgoode's CL CLLM, UBC's LLM, etc etc). 

I think in the coming years, we'll move towards a more NCA inclusive BigLaw, which, again, can only be a good thing.   

[goonersfc]

On 8/29/2021 at 2:45 PM, realpseudonym said:

Always a sure fire start to any sentence.

The more I reflect on my initial comments, the more embarrassed I am. I can completely understand how my words can offend/ anger anyone. For that, I am extremely apologetic. There is nothing I hate more about the internet than random hate spreading messages posted under pseudonyms. I assure you my intention wasn't such. My personal distress was no reason why I should have posted such a comment. Again, I am sorry to anyone who felt disturbed/ angry/ offended by my comments. I will make a sincere effort to come across better next time.

[TheCryptozoologist]

I am pretty ignorant about this whole thing. Does NCA also include US schools or is that different? 

Seems to me that a separate pool for NCA is unfair for Canadian JDs since NCA also has access to general listings/recruitment. But at the same time lots of Canadians who go abroad even to pretty decent schools in the US have a hard time returning. Experience in another country isn't also something that can also be equivocated, just like how Canada has a higher standard and quality for medical training, so too would law probably be the same way given higher barriers here.

At the risk of sounding xenophobic, alot of foreign-trained lawyers who got their education outside North America to me seem like awkward fits. Half the ones I've met have good qualities you'll expect in lawyers but there is more than a handful who come off as pushy, transactional and not really able to read the room. To me, it seems like its coming from a place of insecurity since they are substituting a lack of knowledge with personality jockeying. 

I'd also add, professors and legal academia shape us more than we'd admit and lawyers who never went to a Western law school don't usually have the same scholarly intensity or sense of moral or social duty or idea about empowerment that law students and lawyers develop. I mean most Western-educated law students develop unnatural and certainly unhealthy crushes with their favorite Supreme or Lord Justice e.g. Brandeis or Scalia or McLachlan or Dennings or whatever and more than a handful will adopt their personality characteristics.

[Yogurt Baron]

38 minutes ago, TheCryptozoologist said:

At the risk of sounding xenophobic...

Didn't we just have one of these yesterday?

[Telephantasm]

4 hours ago, TheCryptozoologist said:

Experience in another country isn't also something that can also be equivocated, just like how Canada has a higher standard and quality for medical training, so too would law probably be the same way given higher barriers here.

To equivocate: use ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth or avoid committing oneself.

[Rashabon]

8 hours ago, TheCryptozoologist said:

I am pretty ignorant about this whole thing. Does NCA also include US schools or is that different? 

Seems to me that a separate pool for NCA is unfair for Canadian JDs since NCA also has access to general listings/recruitment. But at the same time lots of Canadians who go abroad even to pretty decent schools in the US have a hard time returning. Experience in another country isn't also something that can also be equivocated, just like how Canada has a higher standard and quality for medical training, so too would law probably be the same way given higher barriers here.

At the risk of sounding xenophobic, alot of foreign-trained lawyers who got their education outside North America to me seem like awkward fits. Half the ones I've met have good qualities you'll expect in lawyers but there is more than a handful who come off as pushy, transactional and not really able to read the room. To me, it seems like its coming from a place of insecurity since they are substituting a lack of knowledge with personality jockeying. 

I'd also add, professors and legal academia shape us more than we'd admit and lawyers who never went to a Western law school don't usually have the same scholarly intensity or sense of moral or social duty or idea about empowerment that law students and lawyers develop. I mean most Western-educated law students develop unnatural and certainly unhealthy crushes with their favorite Supreme or Lord Justice e.g. Brandeis or Scalia or McLachlan or Dennings or whatever and more than a handful will adopt their personality characteristics.

I like how your default reaction is to orientalize the wily NCA candidate even though the vast majority went to so called “Western” law schools. Also a weird digression on how foreign trained lawyers are “pushy”, even though you’re not a lawyer so your anecdotal experiences are probably significantly limited in any event.

Probably a better word to use than xenophobic if we’re all being honest here.

[hiya]

8 hours ago, TheCryptozoologist said:

Seems to me that a separate pool for NCA is unfair for Canadian JDs since NCA also has access to general listings/recruitment. But at the same time lots of Canadians who go abroad even to pretty decent schools in the US have a hard time returning. Experience in another country isn't also something that can also be equivocated, just like how Canada has a higher standard and quality for medical training, so too would law probably be the same way given higher barriers here.

Sounds to me that your idea of a "decent-to-good" law school can only be found in Canada or the US, and absolutely nowhere else. Wild.

Also here's a fact-check for you: NCA candidates, on top of obtaining a law degree and possibly having years of work experience under their belt, are given a number of NCA exams they have to write (ranging from 5-16) - the syllabi of which are solely based on updated Canadian common law - and after that, they have to fulfil the same articling requirement and take the Bar exams just like you do. If that's not high enough a barrier, I don't know what is.

 

8 hours ago, TheCryptozoologist said:

At the risk of sounding xenophobic, alot of foreign-trained lawyers who got their education outside North America to me seem like awkward fits. Half the ones I've met have good qualities you'll expect in lawyers but there is more than a handful who come off as pushy, transactional and not really able to read the room. To me, it seems like its coming from a place of insecurity since they are substituting a lack of knowledge with personality jockeying.

"awkward fits", "pushy, transactional and not really able to read the room", "substituting a lack of knowledge with personality jockeying"

Is solely relying on a mix of anecdotal evidence and exaggerated generalisation in an attempt to bring a point across also one of the 'skillsets' we lack that we have to substitute with personality jockeying? If so, I, an insecure foreigner, will have to respectfully pass on picking up that skill.

 

8 hours ago, TheCryptozoologist said:

I'd also add, professors and legal academia shape us more than we'd admit and lawyers who never went to a Western law school don't usually have the same scholarly intensity or sense of moral or social duty or idea about empowerment that law students and lawyers develop. I mean most Western-educated law students develop unnatural and certainly unhealthy crushes with their favorite Supreme or Lord Justice e.g. Brandeis or Scalia or McLachlan or Dennings or whatever and more than a handful will adopt their personality characteristics.

So, tl;dr, the ultimate yardstick to determining the worthiness of a foreign trained lawyer in assimilating to the Canadian legal community is.... *drumroll* .... whether or not we simp for one of the Justices. Will put this down on my To-Do list.

Edited September 4, 2021 by hiya

[123]

9 hours ago, TheCryptozoologist said:

I am pretty ignorant about this whole thing

Once you’ve had this realization, it’s usually time to stop typing. Otherwise, you’ll end up saying things like “lawyers who never went to a Western law school don't usually have the same scholarly intensity or sense of moral or social duty”. 

[Rashabon]

34 minutes ago, realpseudonym said:

Once you’ve had this realization, it’s usually time to stop typing. Otherwise, you’ll end up saying things like “lawyers who never went to a Western law school don't usually have the same scholarly intensity or sense of moral or social duty”. 

Yeah the scholarly intensity and moral and social duty imparted on undergraduate students in the UK and Australia 🙄. Or the entirety of the Federalist society.

[TheCryptozoologist]

1 hour ago, Rashabon said:

I like how your default reaction is to orientalize the wily NCA candidate even though the vast majority went to so called “Western” law schools. Also a weird digression on how foreign trained lawyers are “pushy”, even though you’re not a lawyer so your anecdotal experiences are probably significantly limited in any event.

Probably a better word to use than xenophobic if we’re all being honest here.

Didn't mean to give this vibe and didn't mean to categorize all of them. There are lots of very competent ones who shine and who clerked at their country's highest court, and got good degrees from known institutions, etc. Lots of grad students in law I met are like this, very competent people or obvious reasons. 

But there is a handful of non-Western lawyers who didn't go through that, and who will for example immediately interrupt everyone so they can be heard. Some places just don't consider that rude, but to us it comes off as not being reflective or attentive. Most of them granted have not been in this country long and not use to how it is here. 

I can honestly understand the mentality, since a strong edge is always a default defense and many probably feel the stigma of being foreign, non-white recent immigrants. 

29 minutes ago, realpseudonym said:

Once you’ve had this realization, it’s usually time to stop typing. Otherwise, you’ll end up saying things like “lawyers who never went to a Western law school don't usually have the same scholarly intensity or sense of moral or social duty”. 

Agreed I should not have written that since I'm dead wrong and didn't reflect on the bigger pool of types I meet. Probably should have said something like "steeped in the ways of old dead white men" like the Federalist Society or Runnymede Society. 

[TheCryptozoologist]

1 hour ago, Rashabon said:

I like how your default reaction is to orientalize the wily NCA candidate even though the vast majority went to so called “Western” law schools. Also a weird digression on how foreign trained lawyers are “pushy”, even though you’re not a lawyer so your anecdotal experiences are probably significantly limited in any event.

Probably a better word to use than xenophobic if we’re all being honest here.

Eh for what its worth my comments about pushiness don't really apply to UK/AUS trained ones so much who grew up here. But travelling abroad its easy to see other countries have very different social cultures than North Americans and lots of things we do come off as rude. Honestly, I always thought the non-Western grads were the bigger group in recent years given how the NCA sees all common law degrees as the same. 

Edited September 4, 2021 by TheCryptozoologist

[Rashabon]

With all due respect, you should probably just shut the fuck up before you continue to make borderline racist statements about foreign trained lawyers.

You’ve now managed to demonstrate profound ignorance about litigators, litigation, solicitors, transactional work, NCA lawyers, presumably East and South Asian lawyers and who knows what else.

You’re quickly demonstrating yourself to be a world class schmuck.

[TheCryptozoologist]

15 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

With all due respect, you should probably just shut the fuck up before you continue to make borderline racist statements about foreign trained lawyers.

You’ve now managed to demonstrate profound ignorance about litigators, litigation, solicitors, transactional work, NCA lawyers, presumably East and South Asian lawyers and who knows what else.

You’re quickly demonstrating yourself to be a world class schmuck.

I said nothing on racial grounds, since there's lots of non-Anglophone European lawyers who are also not fully accustomed to North American norms. But will not yield on cultural differences. Just like how many Americans are super forward and open with strangers which makes alot of people including in Canada uncomfortable.  I do take back using pushiness to describe people, its the absolute wrong word. 

EDIT: But I will shut the fuck up. I am digging myself in a hole here, dunno why I do this here.

Edited September 4, 2021 by TheCryptozoologist

[Rashabon]

Just stop dude. Nobody believes that you were referring to non-Anglophone Europeans when you were taking a shit on “non-Western” lawyers who lack the social and moral duty or scholarly intensity of so-called Western lawyers. We all know who you were referring to and backtracking now isn’t helping.