Why is working as a prosecutor (seemingly) more prestigious in the States?

[Wemby]

I see many HYS grads and big law litigators in the states transitioning as prosecutors and big law firms poaching experienced prosecutors as partners.

This doesn't seem to be the case in Canada and the Crown doesn't seem to attract too many ambitious students or offer much career flexibility.

Does anyone know why this might be?

[Patient0L]

Hmmm… BCPS articling recruit is very competitive—over 200 students for 6-8 spots. The guy in our class who got one of the three positions available in the Vancouver area also got the 1L crim course prize.

[BHC1]

On 11/28/2024 at 10:50 PM, Wemby said:

I see many HYS grads and big law litigators in the states transitioning as prosecutors and big law firms poaching experienced prosecutors as partners.

This doesn't seem to be the case in Canada and the Crown doesn't seem to attract too many ambitious students or offer much career flexibility.

Does anyone know why this might be?

For what it’s worth (next to nothing IMO), the Crown offices hire tons of “Harvard of the North” McGill and UofT law students every year. I also don’t agree with your characterizing of Crown offices as not attracting ‘ambitious students’ - they just attract those interested in doing criminal law. 

As for career flexibility, there is just less overlap in both useful practical skills and civil/criminal bar membership as there is in the States. For example, top civil litigators in Canada may never need to do a jury trial, so the skills a Crown prosecutor learns from doing them is just going to be less valuable to a top civil litigation group. This may be changing a bit with the Hutchisons of the world, but the two bars (criminal and civil) are just more siloed here in general than they are down South.

[WiseGhost]

I've always perceived Crown roles and articling positions at top criminal defence firms as being very competitive. If working as a prosecutor is indeed more prestigious in the States, it might have something to do with the practice of electing prosecutors making the role more visible. 

[GoatDuck]

In terms of law-adjacent prestige, the US generally has higher highs and lower lows than Canada does. Top tier schools in Canada don't have the same prestige and entry barrier as top tier schools in the States; bottom tier schools here are nearly not as bad as bottom tier schools down there. Just from talking to my friends, Crown roles are very competitive. If it turns out that top Crown roles are not as competitive as the most competitive prosecutorial roles in the States, it would be just the working out of the same principle that applies to pretty much every other area. 

[QueensDenning]

Ive always thought of crown roles as more competitive than biglaw. I knew two crowns from my graduating class, both could have worked at any biglaw firm if they wanted to. One was a medalist and is about to start clerking at the SCC. 

[Jaggers]

I clerked at the Court of Appeal and a quarter of my cohort are crowns. They also could have gone to any firm.

On 11/30/2024 at 2:01 PM, BHC1 said:

As for career flexibility, there is just less overlap in both useful practical skills and civil/criminal bar membership as there is in the States. For example, top civil litigators in Canada may never need to do a jury trial, so the skills a Crown prosecutor learns from doing them is just going to be less valuable to a top civil litigation group. This may be changing a bit with the Hutchisons of the world, but the two bars (criminal and civil) are just more siloed here in general than they are down South.

We also have regulators with less teeth, so the corporate white collar crime practice is way smaller here than in the US, so there are just fewer jobs for the Hutchison types.

[Kurrika]

There could potentially be a difference in the types of trials our crowns do vs say, a us federal prosecutor.   I don't think we do any real complicated or white collar type crime stuff here in Canada.

 

Or even complicated regulatory offence type stuff?

 

 

I could be wrong.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Kurrika

[CleanHands]

During his campaign Chris Christie wouldn't shut the fuck up about how he was a federal prosecutor. It can't be that prestigious if that fat fuck did it. lol

[Peculiar Frond]

Lots of good answers here.  Another one is the revolving door itself.  Prosecution jobs in Canada are unionized and de-politicized.  Neither is true of the U.S.  The top prosecutors are appointed or elected, and they hire their own staff and have a great deal of discretion in how they run their offices.  (So much so that Southern District of New York—probably the most consequential prosecutors’ office in the world—is sometimes, only half-jokingly, called the ‘Sovereign’ District of New York.) 

The prosecutors’ offices (especially the most prestigious offices, such as SDNY, EDNY, SEC, DOJ, whatever) set people up for lucrative careers in private practice.  Because if you’re facing a white-collar investigation (of which there are many in the U.S.), you (the client) want to be represented by someone who knows the people bringing the case.  That is particularly so given that many of these investigations are really a long dance towards a settlement.  So that is another reason why the jobs are so sought after—they are highly valuable to private sector careers in a way that the Ontario MAG simply isn’t. 

Also, Chris Christie wasn’t just ‘a prosecutor.’  He was the U.S. Attorney for the District of New Jersey, a political appointment (by Bush), one that comes with a huge amount of responsibility and discretion.  And he used that appointment to run for governor and subsequently, of course, president.  Kamala Harris, to give another example, was elected as AG for California and, before then, as the DA for San Francisco on the back of her experience as ADA in the same district.  Both examples illustrate the broader point that, at the very high end, working as a prosecutor is seen as a stepping stone to other political endeavours. 

[Kurrika]

I think Canada's most recent "high profile" white collar crime trial was Mike Duffy's travel and living expenses?

[TommyBratton]

So I'm an ex-Big Law gunner who couldn't be happier that I eventually landed a Crown job. 

When 1L ended, I had solid grades at a non-Toronto Ontario law school. I actually really liked my crim course, but I had a business undergrad so Big Law just made sense. The way I saw it, both Big Law and GTA MAG jobs were similarly competitive, but Big Law pays significantly more, so the EV (expected value) of Big Law was better, especially given how I could position myself with my background. 

I then struck out on OCIs. Got into a civil law MAG office for 2L and Articling. Found out I wanted to do litigation, but my office didn't have an open litigator contract, so I applied to a few Crown offices and got an offer after my first interview. 

I now love it. I've drank the prosecutor Kool-Aid and really enjoy the chaos that comes with being a Crown: very little prep time for the lots of speaking you do in court. 

When I look around me, I see a variety of backgrounds. There are clerks, ex-Big Law, those that started in defence, and a few people with odd paths to being a Crown, like me. But the commonality is that we like our job. Criminal law has a special kind excitement that is addicting for certain personality types. We know that civil firms would pay more, but the pace would be slower. Our actions would be scrutinized more, since we would have clients to answer to and billable hours to meet. As Crowns, our job is to advance the interests of justice, not necessarily win a certain percent of cases. What that comes down to is making sure we show up to court prepared and able to coherently lay out the evidence. We're not asked to be perfectionists, we're asked to get through the mountain of cases our office has (at least, this is true as a junior). Combine that with the really great pension and I think it makes sense why people wouldn't leave a job when they know there isn't any job out there that is quite like what we have. 

From what I've heard, a lot of civil litigation firms will look favourably on Crowning experience, should you want to leave, but the situation is there are not a lot of Crowns looking to make that move. And I think just based off of how the pension works, the longer you stay a Crown, the less likely you are to leave. 

[SNAILS]

Being a Crown in Canada is quite prestigious. I'm not sure if its' more or less prestigious than being a DA in the US.

The Crown Prosecution manuals calls for prosecuting offences in the public interest; it is not about winning or losing. There is no bragging about how many bad guys a certain prosecutor threw in jail. This, along with DA's being elected is likely the reason for the perceived difference.

[CleanHands]

11 hours ago, SNAILS said:

Being a Crown in Canada is quite prestigious. I'm not sure if its' more or less prestigious than being a DA in the US.

The Crown Prosecution manuals calls for prosecuting offences in the public interest; it is not about winning or losing. There is no bragging about how many bad guys a certain prosecutor threw in jail. This, along with DA's being elected is likely the reason for the perceived difference.

I don't agree about your perception of prestige of the role at all, but I also don't think this matters in the slightest. There was a time that I did care. But when you get enough peeks behind the curtain and see what highly placed people in the industry think of various people with blue blood credentials, all of this seems more and more ridiculous every week.

I mean, of course you're right about what the role of the Crown is, but that isn't something that's actually appreciated or cause people (in the field or outside of it) to view the role as "prestigious."

To people in the field, being a Crown Prosecutor is a pretty average lawyer job in terms of competitiveness and skill involved. Government hiring is cyclical, some locations/offices are unattractive, and some less than stellar lawyers get hired sometimes.

To people outside the field...well, while working as a Crown I have had plenty of conversations with victims, police officers, victim services workers, witnesses, etc., and I'll just say that people rarely seem so awed by the role that they are reluctant to speak their mind when they don't like the decisions Crowns make or explanations they provide.

Don't even get me started on the way some judges can speak to Crowns.

But whatever. Being a Crown Prosecutor is trench warrior lawyering, and requires people who are tuned in to the lived experiences of marginalized people who get no respect from society, don't have a lot of formal education, etc. It isn't a good thing for a Crown to be an overly academic type with a big ego. And the lack of respect with which the role is regularly afforded helps keep one grounded.

Edited December 22, 2024 by CleanHands

[SNAILS]

Here's my ranking of prestige. For simplicity, assume all are 10+ year calls:

1. Lawyer that has distinguished her/himself due to performance (i.e Eddie Greenspan, Marie Heinen)
2. Partner at Bay Street firm
3. Crown
4. Successful sole practitioner or small firm owner in real estate, bankruptcy, family, criminal, etc
5. Counsel working for a a firm as an "associate" of some kind
6. Duty counsel / clinic
7. Disbarred / on suspension for fraud or alcoholism
8. Personal injury lawyer

For 1 year calls:

1. Major Bay Street firm
2. Crown
3. Known boutique (real estate, bankruptcy, family, criminal, etc)
4. Random small firm (real estate, bankruptcy, family, criminal, etc)
5. Duty counsel / clinic
6. Unemployed
7. Disbarred
8. Personal injury

The above is of course a very rough estimate and there are many other variables.

[BHC1]

1 hour ago, SNAILS said:

Here's my ranking of prestige. For simplicity, assume all are 10+ year calls:

1. Lawyer that has distinguished her/himself due to performance (i.e Eddie Greenspan, Marie Heinen)
2. Partner at Bay Street firm
3. Crown
4. Successful sole practitioner or small firm owner in real estate, bankruptcy, family, criminal, etc
5. Counsel working for a a firm as an "associate" of some kind
6. Duty counsel / clinic
7. Disbarred / on suspension for fraud or alcoholism
8. Personal injury lawyer

For 1 year calls:

1. Major Bay Street firm
2. Crown
3. Known boutique (real estate, bankruptcy, family, criminal, etc)
4. Random small firm (real estate, bankruptcy, family, criminal, etc)
5. Duty counsel / clinic
6. Unemployed
7. Disbarred
8. Personal injury

The above is of course a very rough estimate and there are many other variables.

Dude what is going on with this list lololo

[WiseGhost]

Why isn't partner at Dentons number one? Scuffed list

[CleanHands]

9 hours ago, SNAILS said:

Here's my ranking of prestige. For simplicity, assume all are 10+ year calls:

1. Lawyer that has distinguished her/himself due to performance (i.e Eddie Greenspan, Marie Heinen)
2. Partner at Bay Street firm
3. Crown
4. Successful sole practitioner or small firm owner in real estate, bankruptcy, family, criminal, etc
5. Counsel working for a a firm as an "associate" of some kind
6. Duty counsel / clinic
7. Disbarred / on suspension for fraud or alcoholism
8. Personal injury lawyer

For 1 year calls:

1. Major Bay Street firm
2. Crown
3. Known boutique (real estate, bankruptcy, family, criminal, etc)
4. Random small firm (real estate, bankruptcy, family, criminal, etc)
5. Duty counsel / clinic
6. Unemployed
7. Disbarred
8. Personal injury

The above is of course a very rough estimate and there are many other variables.

I can't tell whether this is a great shitpost or a terrible sincere post.

[Dood]

Here's my ranking of prestige. For simplicity, assume all are 10+ year calls:

• CPD course CEO
• Ontario barrister appearing remotely from the crib in Tampa Bay
• Local solo that knows all the judges
• Voting on a case during an admin hearing of the Ontario Horse Racing Appeal Panel (HRAP). Wielding this level of power must feel crazy dude.
• Voting on a case during an admin hearing of the Ontario Alcohol and Gaming Commission. But lowkey close to Upper tier of legal practice air?
• Moved to Michigan and teaching at a for-profit law school
• Moved to Florida and failed the fl bar exam (not open book tho)

[canuckfanatic]

Here's my ranking of prestige. For simplicity, assume all are 10+ years old: