UofT w/ aid vs. Osgoode - Crim/Family/non-BigLaw

[alf]

I’ve been accepted to both Osgoode and UofT but I’m having a really tough time wrapping my head around which school is better for me.

I care little for BigLaw and would rather avoid it altogether. As of now, my interest is mostly in criminal and family law, and slightly in civil litigation.

I’d like to pursue Crown work after law school and I’ve heard that it’s easier to go from Crown to defence than the other way around (please correct me if I'm wrong). I'm very open to doing defence and legal aid work in the future and dabbling in the other areas I mentioned. I work at a small firm which is looking to diversify its services, and I would likely be able to return many years later as a lawyer with more experience under my belt.

I know Osgoode has amazing clinics and more of them than UofT, but I’ve also heard some wonderful things about UofT’s Downtown Legal Services. Osgoode’s criminal law intensive seems really appealing, though I’m not sure how much of an advantage this would give since UofT also seems to offer criminal/family law courses with clinical placements. However, I would guess that Osgoode’s more plentiful clinical opportunities still give it the edge. If any current or former UofT students could offer some insight into the criminal/family opportunities at DLS (or other clinics I may have missed), I would really appreciate it!

Financially, I think both schools’ tuitions come out to a relatively similar price for me when accounting for UofT’s financial aid estimates. UofT might actually end up being significantly cheaper in the long run since I could reliably use GO and TTC instead of purchasing a vehicle (with heaps of expenses coming with it). Since minimizing debt seems to be important for the type of law I’m pursuing, I was wondering if I should place more weight on this?

In terms of campuses, I think I would give the edge to UofT since it feels more dynamic and alive. That being said, I do like (tolerate?) York’s campus. Despite being a bit dull, it seems quite peaceful. But to be completely honest, I want to go to UofT. I did my undergrad here, have gotten familiar with the area, have friends that go here, and so it just feels more like… home-y, or natural, or something like that. At the same time, I’m hesitating to follow my heart if it means undermining my brain, which is telling me that Osgoode’s clinics and culture may be better suited to my goals. I guess I’m worried that if I go to UofT, I might be surrounded by peers who are predominantly interested in corporate/BigLaw and miss out on potentially valuable connections which I could otherwise make at Osgoode. Or I could be completely misunderstanding this, and maybe UofT provides similarly great opportunities for what I want to do? 

Any advice, corrections, or clarifications would be much appreciated!

Edited December 13, 2024 by alf
grammar

[WiseGhost]

Go to UofT in my view. Why go to Osgoode for more money when you prefer UofT and have an established support network there? The reality is that both schools are corporate focused because Bay Street is where are a lot of the jobs are, but every law school will have a core of students who have no interest in corporate work.

[2easy]

UofT, no brainer, there’s gonna be tons of people at UofT, interested in other stuff. Also, if your interest do change, which they most likely will. You’ll have tons of other opportunities.

[B_Stone]

I believe that U of T sometimes gets an unfair reputation as being "bad" for non-Big Law fields, but this is untrue. Yes, it is true that many of your classmates will want to go into corporate law, but Osgoode also has similar rates of people who want to go into corporate law. U of T has the leading scholars in Criminal Law. Downtown Legal Services is easily the most comprehensive in breadth and amongst the largest community legal clinics in the country. There are also a number a large number of fellowship and externships in the field available - take a look at some we offer now!

https://www.law.utoronto.ca/academic-programs/course-calendar

https://www.law.utoronto.ca/student-life/career-development-office/summer-internship-programs

I have several friends who have earned themselves roles with the Crown and the PPSC and have loved their time here and gained valuable experience for their interests. Same thing for family law. 

When you add up how much U of T actually does offer you in Criminal law, in addition to the excitement of campus, the financial aid, and the fact that U of T Law is actually an incredibly special place, I cannot possibly see another reason to go anywhere else in the country.

[GoatDuck]

31 minutes ago, B_Stone said:

U of T has the leading scholars in Criminal Law

But does UofT have Heidi Matthews?

[B_Stone]

50 minutes ago, GoatDuck said:

But does UofT have Heidi Matthews?

I'll raise you with a Kent Roach

[Steve from Stevenage]

17 hours ago, alf said:

I’ve been accepted to both Osgoode and UofT but I’m having a really tough time wrapping my head around which school is better for me.

TLDR: as other people have said, it seems like you're a better fit for UofT, but here's some considerations that haven't been mentioned.

Quote

I care little for BigLaw and would rather avoid it altogether. As of now, my interest is mostly in criminal and family law, and slightly in civil litigation.

Both schools are incredibly corporate-focused, so you're not going to escape the endless fire hose of recruitment events/messaging/anxiety either way. The difference is that the Osgoode class is 50% bigger, and from personal experience (as well as the stories of many like-minded UofT friends) those extra students lean heavily non-corporate.

To a point you make below, it is certainly worth considering the connections you're going to make throughout law school. I don't think there's a single class about it in any law school in Canada, but legal work is relationship work. Ask yourself what relationships you want: if you want a "high net worth" family law clientele, UofT starts looking pretty good! But if you want to have a front-line community practice, then connections with a bunch of Bay Street lawyers might be nice for the occasional yacht ride, but maybe not for the people who are going to be referring work to you and sharing meaningful lessons.

 

Quote

I’d like to pursue Crown work after law school and I’ve heard that it’s easier to go from Crown to defence than the other way around (please correct me if I'm wrong). I'm very open to doing defence and legal aid work in the future and dabbling in the other areas I mentioned. I work at a small firm which is looking to diversify its services, and I would likely be able to return many years later as a lawyer with more experience under my belt.

I think this is the most curious part of your post, and I'd encourage you to reflect on your goals and motivations, regardless of your choice of school. Do you genuinely believe in flipping between Crown and defence? That's not an uncommon position ("we're all doing our part to make the justice system work" and all that jazz), but it would put you at odds with a lot of students and lawyers who see the job of "Crown" and the job of "defence counsel" as fundamentally opposed. And those people make up a not-insignificant part of the "non-corporate" student body at Osgoode, which might factor into your choice.

 

Quote

I know Osgoode has amazing clinics and more of them than UofT, but I’ve also heard some wonderful things about UofT’s Downtown Legal Services. Osgoode’s criminal law intensive seems really appealing, though I’m not sure how much of an advantage this would give since UofT also seems to offer criminal/family law courses with clinical placements. However, I would guess that Osgoode’s more plentiful clinical opportunities still give it the edge. If any current or former UofT students could offer some insight into the criminal/family opportunities at DLS (or other clinics I may have missed), I would really appreciate it!

Osgoode has a much wider breadth of clinics, but if you're laser-focused on crim and family law then DLS is absolutely on par with what Osgoode has to offer. You would not be missing anything, clinic-wise. So ask yourself how open you are to trying new things, versus sticking to your initial goals.

What I'd highlight, however, is the difference between the criminal law courses on offer at each school. Obviously, nobody here has attended both schools, so take everything said with a grain of salt. But looking at the upper year syllabi and hearing the complaints from my crim-focused UofT friends, it really does seem like night and day. Both schools have your "main course" options, but the amount of specialized crim seminars on offer at Osgoode has really impressed me, taught by amazing practitioners and at least five sitting justices (e.g. with your interest in crim/family, Justices Chapman and Witkin teach a class on SV offences, and bring a career's worth of lessons from defence and Crown). To be clear, the offerings at UofT are good! But it's something to think about, especially since you seem to already have a path chosen.

Where the offerings are not good, unfortunately, is with regards to family law. Both schools have a basic "family law" class and a "child/youth law" class... and that's about it. Both schools will sometimes run specialized seminars (you can find traces of them on both schools' websites), but don't be fooled into thinking they're a regular offer. I have very sad friends at both schools who learned that the hard way.
 

Quote

Financially, I think both schools’ tuitions come out to a relatively similar price for me when accounting for UofT’s financial aid estimates. UofT might actually end up being significantly cheaper in the long run since I could reliably use GO and TTC instead of purchasing a vehicle (with heaps of expenses coming with it). Since minimizing debt seems to be important for the type of law I’m pursuing, I was wondering if I should place more weight on this?

I somehow doubt this is the popular wisdom around these parts, but I would tell you to put less weight on finances. (And because it would be a valid question: I am coming to this (and law) as someone with zero financial support and who will be graduating with an unfortunately large debt load.)

Finances are important. You can't do anything if you can't eat. Everyone's situation is unique, as are their needs and their goals. But generally speaking, lawyers live in a bubble regarding what a subsistence wage is, and law students are quickly sucked into believing that if they don't immediately earn [insert salary that is double what most Canadians will ever aspire to], then they're never going to financially recover from this. (Seriously, go check what the average income is, and ideally print it out and keep it next to your bed for the duration of law school.)

You're going to be very comfortable (by anyone's metric except lawyers) as either a criminal or family lawyer. It is absolutely valid to choose a higher paying route for any of a thousand reasons (family responsibilities, risk-tolerance, financial security, because you want to and it's a free country), but my biggest pet peeve is law students complaining that "they'd love to do X, but can't afford to. You just wouldn't understand", as they post about their fifth vacation of the year on socials.

So if the difference isn't much (and Osgoode is particularly annoying in that bursaries aren't calculated until the semester starts), this shouldn't be a primary factor (unless you need it to be!).

 

Quote

But to be completely honest, I want to go to UofT.

At the same time, I’m hesitating to follow my heart if it means undermining my brain, which is telling me that Osgoode’s clinics and culture may be better suited to my goals.

If this post makes me seem like an Osgoode homer... well, I did choose the school! But the words "hesitating to follow my heart" make it seem like UofT is the right choice for you. I think it's worth thinking about everything I said (I am very smart, after all), but at the end of the day there isn't a wrong decision here. If there's one thing I can convince you to do, it's: get comfortable with closing doors.

Law school is 3 years of FOMO. There's far too much to do, and too many interesting paths to consider. But I've seen too many friends end up with jobs they don't like, because they were so worried about "not closing any doors, because I'm not 100% sure what I want to do yet". So absolutely consider this decision. You've earned it (I never said congratulations, but I'll say it heartfeltedly now) and there is no rush to choose! Reach out to crim/fam lawyers who've gone to either school: the mean way to say it is that lawyers love to talk about themselves, the kind way is that this profession is extremely collegial. Both are true. But wherever you end up, you're going to be just fine. You're choosing between the proverbial silver spoon, and an ethically-sourced spoon made of only the finest Element 47.

[alf]

7 hours ago, B_Stone said:

I believe that U of T sometimes gets an unfair reputation as being "bad" for non-Big Law fields, but this is untrue. Yes, it is true that many of your classmates will want to go into corporate law, but Osgoode also has similar rates of people who want to go into corporate law. U of T has the leading scholars in Criminal Law. Downtown Legal Services is easily the most comprehensive in breadth and amongst the largest community legal clinics in the country. There are also a number a large number of fellowship and externships in the field available - take a look at some we offer now!

https://www.law.utoronto.ca/academic-programs/course-calendar

https://www.law.utoronto.ca/student-life/career-development-office/summer-internship-programs

I have several friends who have earned themselves roles with the Crown and the PPSC and have loved their time here and gained valuable experience for their interests. Same thing for family law. 

When you add up how much U of T actually does offer you in Criminal law, in addition to the excitement of campus, the financial aid, and the fact that U of T Law is actually an incredibly special place, I cannot possibly see another reason to go anywhere else in the country.

Thank you for this perspective, truly! I think I've been caught up in the "UofT = BigLaw" rabbithole and that is what I was worried about. It's very reassuring to know that UofT students often succeed in other areas of law! This is probably really obvious to most students, but since most discourse about UofT tends to revolve around Bay Street, I'm really glad to hear this.

 

3 hours ago, Steve from Stevenage said:

I think this is the most curious part of your post, and I'd encourage you to reflect on your goals and motivations, regardless of your choice of school. Do you genuinely believe in flipping between Crown and defence? That's not an uncommon position ("we're all doing our part to make the justice system work" and all that jazz), but it would put you at odds with a lot of students and lawyers who see the job of "Crown" and the job of "defence counsel" as fundamentally opposed. And those people make up a not-insignificant part of the "non-corporate" student body at Osgoode, which might factor into your choice.

I'm extremely grateful for your comprehensive answers.

I guess I've shown my ignorance about the nature of Crown vs. defence through this post, because I'm not quite sure what you mean by "it would put you at odds with a lot of students and lawyers who see the job of 'Crown' and the job of 'defence counsel' as fundamentally opposed. And those people make up a not-insignificant part of the 'non-corporate' student body at Osgoode, which might factor into your choice." Forgive me if I misunderstood this point, but do you mean that since most students typically pursue one line of work over the other, that they may look down on ("put me at odds with") those who are seemingly undedicated to one in particular? 

I haven't started law school yet so I can't say for sure whether I would like to be a Crown or a defence lawyer, nor can I foresee which one I may find more interest in, but I have read in this forum and elsewhere that it's easier to go from Crown -> defence (due to summers/articling with the Crown) rather than defence -> Crown (which may be more closed off). Based on this, I was suggesting that I could perhaps start by pursuing a Crown role and see where it takes me. And if I end up not liking it, I could switch to defence. I didn't mean to suggest that I would definitely switch to defence, which my original post does seem to imply now that I'm reading it again.

3 hours ago, Steve from Stevenage said:

I somehow doubt this is the popular wisdom around these parts, but I would tell you to put less weight on finances. (And because it would be a valid question: I am coming to this (and law) as someone with zero financial support and who will be graduating with an unfortunately large debt load.)

Finances are important. You can't do anything if you can't eat. Everyone's situation is unique, as are their needs and their goals. But generally speaking, lawyers live in a bubble regarding what a subsistence wage is, and law students are quickly sucked into believing that if they don't immediately earn [insert salary that is double what most Canadians will ever aspire to], then they're never going to financially recover from this. (Seriously, go check what the average income is, and ideally print it out and keep it next to your bed for the duration of law school.)

You're going to be very comfortable (by anyone's metric except lawyers) as either a criminal or family lawyer. It is absolutely valid to choose a higher paying route for any of a thousand reasons (family responsibilities, risk-tolerance, financial security, because you want to and it's a free country), but my biggest pet peeve is law students complaining that "they'd love to do X, but can't afford to. You just wouldn't understand", as they post about their fifth vacation of the year on socials.

So if the difference isn't much (and Osgoode is particularly annoying in that bursaries aren't calculated until the semester starts), this shouldn't be a primary factor (unless you need it to be!).

I'd like to belive that I'm at least somewhat aware of this, which is one of the reasons I'm gravitating towards non-BigLaw positions. I see many of my friends (law and otherwise) ascribe value to careers based on salary numbers and I find it a bit off-putting for similar reasons that you mention. However, when it comes to expenses, I would like to minimize them if I can do so reasonably. Thank you for your advice though; I'll take it to heart.

3 hours ago, Steve from Stevenage said:

But the words "hesitating to follow my heart" make it seem like UofT is the right choice for you. I think it's worth thinking about everything I said (I am very smart, after all), but at the end of the day there isn't a wrong decision here.

I think so too! And whether you meant it sarcastically or not, I'm sure you are incredibly smart (and plenty wise from what I can tell)! 

3 hours ago, Steve from Stevenage said:

If there's one thing I can convince you to do, it's: get comfortable with closing doors.

Law school is 3 years of FOMO. There's far too much to do, and too many interesting paths to consider. But I've seen too many friends end up with jobs they don't like, because they were so worried about "not closing any doors, because I'm not 100% sure what I want to do yet". So absolutely consider this decision. You've earned it (I never said congratulations, but I'll say it heartfeltedly now) and there is no rush to choose! Reach out to crim/fam lawyers who've gone to either school: the mean way to say it is that lawyers love to talk about themselves, the kind way is that this profession is extremely collegial. Both are true. But wherever you end up, you're going to be just fine. You're choosing between the proverbial silver spoon, and an ethically-sourced spoon made of only the finest Element 47.

Thank you for this. You've seen straight through me because it's true that I have trouble making compromises, even when choosing between two amazing schools 😅. I will definitely keep this bit of wisdom with me for time, since it's something I often struggle with. Your perspective is very valuable and I appreciate that you've shared it.

Your spoon methaphor made me giggle! I actually really like silver so it resonates with me more than you'd think haha.

Edited December 14, 2024 by alf

[BHC1]

On 12/12/2024 at 11:32 PM, alf said:

I’d like to pursue Crown work after law school and I’ve heard that it’s easier to go from Crown to defence than the other way around (please correct me if I'm wrong). I'm very open to doing defence and legal aid work in the future and dabbling in the other areas I mentioned.

PPSC and MAG both give hiring priority to current and former employees. This makes switching from defence to Crown difficult, particularly early in your career when competing for entry level roles. After you gain a few years of experience and develop your professional reputation though, switching from one to the other becomes a lot more feasible. 

[SNAILS]

This thread is old, and I'll keep it brief. Also, @Steve from Stevenage pretty much said most of what needs to be said.

• U of T still carries some prestige over Osgoode even in fields outside of corporate. Your resume will show you had what it took to get into and compete with the best.
• Family law offerings at Oz (where I went) are slim, and I hear they are slim at U of T as well.
• TTC access is not a factor. Oz has perfectly fine TTC access, and if your commute is a bit longer, read your textbooks.
• Osgoode's Criminal Law Intensive is really the only thing that makes Oz better. Other posters have said U of T offers courses that involve clinical work, but it's totally different to have only one placement for the entire term vs rushing back to school after your placement for another course. The intensive makes you feel almost like you are low key articling there.
• Course offerings at OZ in crim are quite solid: Asside from common courses like Crim Pro, Evidence, 1L Crim, you have sexual offences, trial advocacy (highly recommended), cybercrime, prison law, justice 360, and a host of others.