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Thoughts on working in multiple practice areas


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CroffleKing
  • Law School Admit
Posted

Apologies if this has been asked and answered elsewhere - I did do a quick search and came up empty handed.

I am curious what people's thoughts are on working in multiple practice areas. When asking about this to lawyers I know, I'm consistently told that it's a very bad idea to practice in multiple areas and can lead to significant trouble with the law society. However, I consistently observe that many lawyers choose to practice in two or more distinct practice areas, and that having more than 2 and being a 'general practice' lawyer is very common in rural areas or with underserved urban populations (e.g., lawyers working for non-profits that focus on access to justice doing some civil work and some criminal work).

I recognize that often people are working in two distinct areas that overlap like someone who works in real estate having a small portion of their scope of practice that could be viewed as fitting in scope for tax. Similarly, I recognize the idea of practice areas or fields within law can be murky and there is a lot of overlap - I'm less interested in splitting hairs between what counts as tax law vs what counts as real estate and where the line is, and more interested in the situations where people would respond in a conversation about what areas of law they practice and identify two different areas (e.g., someone who says they are a criminal defense attorney and also practice immigration law) or someone who gives a non-traditional answer about the type of law they practice that sounds like it spans several of the traditional areas of practice (e.g., someone saying they work in poverty law, cannabis law, or aviation law - apologies if this is my ignorance showing and some or all of these are actually more similar to criminal or family law, or how a specific criminal or family law practice actually looks, than I realize at this stage).

I'm generally interested in any thought or discussion around this, but specifically interested in:

1: If you practice in multiple areas of law, what areas are they and what are the common competencies and things that tie the two areas together in your mind?

2: Do you get the sense this is directly or indirectly frowned upon? Is it more acceptable in some areas of practice than others to have someone building a practice focused in two areas?

3: If you are doing this and you've been doing it for several years - how did that occur? (I state doing it for several years as I recognize for articles and very junior associates at firms there is more moving around and getting exposure to different things - I'm more interested in hearing about someone who is working across two practice areas and has settled into this by choice)

4: Any benefits or pitfalls to working like this that are worth stating?

5: How did you build expertise in the multiple areas you work in - is it any different than a usual route where you article, then get lots of mentorship and guidance as you develop?

6: If you work rural, and are a junior associate or articling or want to share your earlier career experiences if that is how you started and are further along or have switched to doing something different - how does mentorship and development look in a general practice firm in a rural area compared to what you're hearing from colleagues who have started their career in an urban area? What are the pros and cons for you in terms of career development, what your practice is looking like, etc. in a rural area when from your view you compare your work and development to your peers in urban areas? 

Thanks in advance.

 

BHC1
  • Lawyer
Posted

When I worked in a remote region, it was common for private lawyers to work in multiple practice areas. I met more than 1 lawyer who did civil litigation, criminal law, residential real estate, and ran a general solicitor practice all at the same time. Even just outside of major cities in places like Oshawa or Barrie, it’s not uncommon to meet lawyers working as Crown agents who also run family law practices. It’s definitely a possibility, but from talking to people it seems like it is often more out of necessity (both for their own livelihoods and to assist the community by providing legal services in locations where there aren’t a lot of lawyers) than a general desire to be a jack of all trades, master of none. 

  • Like 1
CroffleKing
  • Law School Admit
Posted

@BHC1 Thanks for the reply. I could see how easily that could happen in private practice in smaller locations. As an incoming student, it is easy to think it would be a good way to not get bored and see a benefit to multiple practice areas. Perhaps the trick is to focus on one area and then gradually change practice areas if the interest fades - although I feel like that may be easier said than done once you're a few years in to a practice area.

BHC1
  • Lawyer
Posted

NP. You’re about to embark on a really amazing journey. Keep an open mind and enjoy the trip! 

  • Like 1
SNAILS
  • Articling Student
Posted (edited)

This is a very interesting topic, and perhaps it's good to start with common ground on what a "rural or remote area" is@BHC1 wrote "just outside of major cities in places like Oshawa or Barrie..." I can't comment on what happens on the outskirts of cities with 100 00+ population because the geographic area I work is even more rural than that.

It would seem that there are different tiers of what one could describe as "rural." At least where it comes to litigation (whether criminal, family, or civil), I would factor in how far in is to the nearest courthouse where the matter is heard.

  1. Fully urban (i.e. within the GTA or even in the core of 100 000+ population cities like Oshawa, Barrie, Guelph, London, Windsor, and even North bay/Sudbury).
  2. Within a 45 minute drive of a place as mentioned above
  3. Small town (no town/city over 30 000 population within 60 minutes drive; less than 6 lawyers taking new clients in a given area of specialty: criminal, family, civil, real estate, wills and estates, personal injury, etc)
  4. True north (Generally 1-3 hours to the nearest 5 day a week law office; includes fly in communities)

This map shows Ontario SCJ courthouses: Map.jpg 

The "just outside Barrie" ring would be tiny, and would not cover the point half way between Barrie and Bracebridge, let alone a random point between Parry Sound and North Bay. Of course, there are many more tiny courthouses not shown on this map (Collingwood and Midland, for example, are satellite courthouses of Barrie).

Edited by SNAILS
  • Thanks 1
SNAILS
  • Articling Student
Posted (edited)

With the above post out of the way, I can give an opinion on what I've labelled "#3 - Small town."

On 1/6/2025 at 4:35 PM, CroffleKing said:

I am curious what people's thoughts are on working in multiple practice areas. When asking about this to lawyers I know, I'm consistently told that it's a very bad idea to practice in multiple areas and can lead to significant trouble with the law society.

I pulled this out of the larger post because I think you need to keep "getting in trouble" separate in your mind from "being successful/planning a viable career path." You will not get in trouble (for purposes of this narrow discussion) if you only practice law in fields you are competent in. There are many lawyers with a broad array of competencies, either because they have taken the time to become competent, or because they seek out the recourses to manage every file competently. You could get into trouble within the seemingly narrow field of criminal law by mismanaging a file that is a sub-specialty - for example a drunk driving file. On the other hand, you could practice real estate and criminal law without issue if you make sure you are competent with every individual matter.

 

On 1/6/2025 at 4:35 PM, CroffleKing said:

I'm generally interested in any thought or discussion around this, but specifically interested in:
 

To give my thoughts on your six questions:

  1. I am an articling student working in criminal and family law. Both involve appearing in court (as opposed to solicitor work like drafting wills or contracts). Both involve client interaction. In a smaller town, clients with criminal matters also tend to have family matters (child custody/parenting time disputes, CAS matters, child support). We do not tend to service the "wealthier" family law clients (who work well paying jobs, have property to fight over, often appear in SCJ as opposed to OCJ).
  2. Nobody "frowns" on this. If a lawyer practicing in multiple areas has a bad reputation, it is about that lawyer and about how he/she practices. A good "full service" lawyer is not frowned upon. Judges sometimes frown upon lawyers not being available to come to court when needed because they have other meetings and courts to appear in (which is a bi-product of having a diverse practice).
  3. I am not far enough along in my career to properly answer this. I will tell you this though. I have expressed intent to practice purely criminal and leave family by the wayside, and I am constantly pressed into diversifying. My job prospects after articles will more likely force me to diversify been further than I have been rather than allow me to specialize, which is what I want (i.e. I may be forced into a family/real estate/small claims practice if I want to stay here).
  4. PITFALLS: It is hard to "get good" at law the more broadly you are trying to learn. I would analogise a video game where you can either get your "sword skill" to level 100 by focussing on that, or get your bow and sword each to level 60. BENIFITS: Job security. Where one area of law is slow (i.e. no major criminal matters coming up) then you can keep busy and make money doing the other thing(s). Of course, you would also get job security by not working in a small town at all. Job security may not even matter if you are willing to move away from the small town if work dries up.
  5. You need to read books and official sources, shadow court whenever possible in your areas of weak knowledge (which is possible during articles but less possible as junior), and ask a ton of questions from your principle. Only take on what you are capable of taking on (which ties in with not getting in trouble with the LSO). Once you've eaten your "humble pie" by telling the client you don't know the answer, follow up and find the answer so you'll be a bit smarter next time. In many ways, becoming good in multiple areas is the same method, but takes more time, then becoming good in one area.
  6. 1L summer - (mostly criminal; small firm)  - Lots of case management appearances by Zoom, disclosure review, trial/CPT prep, client intakes. 2L summer - (70% criminal/30% fam; same small firm) Much more trial prep and drafting written submissions on sentencing, trial, and third party records disclosure on the criminal side. Drafting basic documents (applications, affidavits, motions) on the family side; file management such as ensuring materials are filed, making co-workers aware of deadlines, being first point of contact with clients, chasing after process servers for the hard to find clients. Articling (50/50 criminal and family; public practice) - Criminal side - Lots of face-to-face client interaction; calling sureties and developing bail plans for in custody matters. Family side - Lots of assistance with drafting family court forms and making clients aware of next steps. For both criminal and family there are lots of non-contested court appearances.

(Q6 continued)

How does mentorship and development look in a general practice firm in a rural area compared to what you're hearing from colleagues who have started their career in an urban area?

I heard that colleagues in an urban area are given a lot of assignments (i.e. write an opinion letter on this; draft an early version of that). This may have more to do with the area of law that urban vs rural (i.e. solicitor work in a rural area may have more in common with solicitor work in an urban area than my work has in common with solicitor work in an urban area).

Articling/summer students for criminal firms in an urban area told me their experience was somewhat similar to mine - tons of adjourning things in case management and routine drafting; researching for trials/CPT/JPT.

My work is heavy on client interaction and acting as  a liaison between the client and the lawyer/other staff. This may be the key difference between urban and rural. Sometimes in a small town in a small practice you are the only person capable of dealing with something. You are more likely to fill the duties of other staff who are unavailable in a rural area but who would likely have been abundantly available in an urban area. If the one and only receptionist is gone, you fill in. If the principle lawyer is in another court, you fill in, provided the LSO rules allow you to and if you get permission from your supervisor. In an urban area, there would be 10 other lawyers able to jump in, keeping the articling student's role more confined.

I also think urban students spend more time quietly working away on long term projects. Rural students might have to jump in at any moment to speak to a walk in client; appear in court, draft something unexpected.

The initiative you need to take is also different, I think. You are likely to recognise something that needs to be done and seek permission to do it as a rural student. Urban work would be more "top down" I think; where you don't do anything until someone tells you to do it.

In a small town you will literally know information about clients because you dealt with them in the past. There are maybe only 30 homeless people who tend to get arrested. Many other clients have a long history of being arrested and tied up in family court matters, and you recognise the names because you are not drawing from a population of a million people.

Being in conflict becomes a huge thing. My principle can't help Joe Blow because she was lawyer for the opposing side 5 years ago. The other lawyer we could turn to is also conflicted - she was lawyer for the OCL in a child apprehension matter involving that client. You won't see that as much in an urban area. Any given set of new clients will probably be strangers to you (I distinguish the urban situation of a firm having done real estate deals for X corp for 10 years, with the rural situation of every real estate lawyer in town having dealt with X corp in some capacity in the past).

What are the pros and cons for you in terms of career development, what your practice is looking like, etc. in a rural area when from your view you compare your work and development to your peers in urban areas? 

Rural areas do not have big firms. If you become a firm owner in 20 years with 2 juniors and two clerks beneath you, then you'll have reached the top of your potential. In an urban area, you could theoretically be a partner at a firm with 100+ lawyers.

Pay caps out lower for lawyers employed in rural firms. This is due to firm size, lower cost of living in rural areas, and a lack of huge paying clients (i.e. Bell Canada is going to hire a firm with an office in the GTA, not with the only office in Collingwood). On the other hand, pay can be quite well for sole practitioners and firm owners. Lawyers in public practice will be paid on par with those in the GTA. There may even be pay bonuses in northern areas.

Tying into the above, it is not unreasonably for a junior lawyer in a small town to live in and own a large new home on a half acre of property within 20 minutes of his office. The junior lawyer in the GTA will probably rent an apartment with a long commute. 

There are not enough clients/files at the very high end of each practice area for a lawyer to do only those. A top criminal lawyer in the GTA might have 80% homicide and other major files; the top small town lawyer might get a homicide per year because the murder rate is literally 2 people per year. A GTA real estate lawyer might specialize in commercial law, in particular lease agreements in the food services industry. The small town lawyer might do only one such deal per year simply due to a lack of such legal work and many bigger customers using a lawyer in the GTA. There might easily be so little commercial real estate moving that the lawyer takes on a lot of residential real estate, and even some wills and estates stuff.

If you work for a criminal/family firm in a small town, you will not be able to "transfer" to their merger and acquisitions department because they don't have one.

If you need someone to cover you while you are sick or on vacation, there may be nobody available.

Edited by SNAILS
BHC1
  • Lawyer
Posted
3 hours ago, SNAILS said:

This is a very interesting topic, and perhaps it's good to start with common ground on what a "rural or remote area" is@BHC1 wrote "just outside of major cities in places like Oshawa or Barrie..." I can't comment on what happens on the outskirts of cities with 100 00+ population because the geographic area I work is even more rural than that.

It would seem that there are different tiers of what one could describe as "rural." At least where it comes to litigation (whether criminal, family, or civil), I would factor in how far in is to the nearest courthouse where the matter is heard.

  1. Fully urban (i.e. within the GTA or even in the core of 100 000+ population cities like Oshawa, Barrie, Guelph, London, Windsor, and even North bay/Sudbury).
  2. Within a 45 minute drive of a place as mentioned above
  3. Small town (no town/city over 30 000 population within 60 minutes drive; less than 6 lawyers taking new clients in a given area of specialty: criminal, family, civil, real estate, wills and estates, personal injury, etc)
  4. True north (Generally 1-3 hours to the nearest 5 day a week law office; includes fly in communities)

This map shows Ontario SCJ courthouses: Map.jpg 

The "just outside Barrie" ring would be tiny, and would not cover the point half way between Barrie and Bracebridge, let alone a random point between Parry Sound and North Bay. Of course, there are many more tiny courthouses not shown on this map (Collingwood and Midland, for example, are satellite courthouses of Barrie).

I meant Barrie and Oshawa are just outside a major city, called Toronto. My bad. 

CroffleKing
  • Law School Admit
Posted

Hey @SNAILS - I haven't had a chance to review your second post but on a quick glance it looks like you put up some really good info - thank you for that. Also, the definitions of rural and the map you posted - I did get a chance to review that. I find it very interesting what some people call 'rural.' I spent the first 12 years of my life in a very tiny farming community. The closest urban center was under 125k people and was close to an hour drive away. Then I spent the next part of my childhood between Halifax and somewhere in a part of Southern Ontario which, while it is different towns and cities, really does feel like one massive sprawling continuation of the GTA unless you drive a while in the opposite direction away from the 400 series highways.

Some friends who have mainly been in the GTA except perhaps when they went to university think that where I am living now is rural or semi-rural Canada... even though it's a top 10 city in Canada based on population size: I have to assume they're being facetious, but I also know a part of it is really how they feel about a place that doesn't fit the template of 'important Canada' for people who have spent most of their life living in or around the GTA, or Vancouver, or Montreal. It's a 'why do you continue to live in such a place?' view.

When I'm talking about rural, I think I'm referring more to the sort of place you seem to be located in @SNAILS. I don't know where this journey will take me, but as I move through my 30s and will be hitting late 30s/early 40s by the time I graduate, I'm thinking more that I'd like to be raising a family in a smaller place and not having the same degree of pressure from housing cost. I'm going to keep exploring these questions over the next few years because I want to aim to land articles in a sort of practice and sort of geographic area I want to stay as I've recognized from this forum and talking to others how important that is for setting things up for at least the first several years if not the entirety of a career in law.

Appreciate you chiming in here - I was really hoping you would as I've gathered from your posts you are practicing in a rural area and seem to be happy with that and it doesn't sound as though it's a 'I had to go here as a last resort/to make good money articling' - I have someone in my personal orbit who did articles in the Territories, and she very much did it for something novel and to make as much money as possible during articles and while I appreciate her input, I think it's a different perspective from what I might be looking for here for insights on choosing rural practice, and the realities of (if it is even the reality/necessity which I'm trying to figure out in this post) building a more general practice or working multiple practice areas in a rural setting. I'll review your more substantive post more and possibly follow up with some questions or comments in the next day or two.

CroffleKing
  • Law School Admit
Posted

@SNAILS thanks again for the thorough reply. The questions of competency keep emerging for me and I think what I'm gathering is that I should drop the idea that lawyers fit neatly into areas of practice in a general sense, and particularly when talking about the criminal or family bar. It seems that people might build a reputation for their work in area X, Y or Z but between what you've noted and what I've picked up from other posts (Diplock's AMA post in the criminal law section of this site comes to mind) people take on work they're competent in. I'll shift my focus more toward how to become competent in different areas in law, and as you suggest the concept of a well regarded lawyer vs one who is not as well regarded and set my sights on fitting in the first category.

Hopefully you are able to transition into more of the criminal end of your practice - I appreciate you noting the sort of synergy between the type of family law clients your practice works with.

Do you mind sharing what sort of hours you are pulling in a typical week (if there even is such a thing) in a small town practice focusing on criminal and family?

  • Like 1
SNAILS
  • Articling Student
Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, CroffleKing said:

Do you mind sharing what sort of hours you are pulling in a typical week (if there even is such a thing) in a small town practice focusing on criminal and family?

Certainly. As a 1L or 2L summer student I worked usually 50-55 hours. This seems to be the norm for articling students and 1-3 year calls as well. I could have easily cut that back by 5-10 hours (i.e. 45-50 remaining) if I had set my mind to making my days shorter. I was putting in extra effort to complete every task promptly and to the best of my ability. Nobody was telling me to work past 5:00pm (except maybe once per week), and if I was working late on projects, it was my own fault. Specifically, I could have prioritized those projects over non-essential tasks.

In criminal and family, speaking to emotional and talkative clients is a huge time sink. One of my more efficient colleagues might do an application and affidavit for a child custody matter with a client in 60 minutes. I might take 2-3 hours because I let them talk about their ex cheating, their emotions, and so on. Further to the above, my efficient colleagues would not take random calls from clients or talk to walk ins. A client who completed everything yesterday and does not return to court for 2 weeks does not technically need an "update" and they do not need to unload on us with their feelings. I was the one who would usually take the calls and walk ins, which was actually kind of appreciated by colleagues who did not want to talk to them, but it might make my work week longer than thiers.

There are a lot of opportunities for remote work in a small town (from what I've seen anyway). I do not consider remote work to "run the clock" in the same sense as being in office. I have female colleagues who routinely, for example, tell me to call them back in 15 minute because their kids need them for a snack or to break up a fight (i.e. they are taking breaks as needed for non-work things).

In public practice, where I am working now (Legal Aid, Crown work, CAS) the hours are more rigid and amount to maybe 45-50 per week.

If you expect to work less than 45 hours per week, that is simply not possible anywhere in the junior years of lawyer work. The only exception, I think, are those who put in an 8 hour day remotely where they are only actually working 3-4 hours that day.

More senior lawyers may be able to roll in at 10:00 am and/or leave at 3:00pm, but they often also have hellish crazy times like when they are doing trials and such, or they are so senior that they are semi-retired.

TAKEAWAY:

  • 45 to 55 hours per week
  • Some spikes in your work day (having 2 slow days followed by 2 days where you are working late on an urgent motion or trial prep)
  • You probably won't be working slave hours of 60-70 per week as is common in big law.
  • If you are working over 50 hours it's because you love what you do and not because anyone is breathing over your shoulder demanding you stay late 
Edited by SNAILS
  • Like 1
CroffleKing
  • Law School Admit
Posted

@SNAILS Thanks for this. I'm definitely not expecting short work weeks in any area of practice. I'm moving from a different profession where I'm already pulling 50-60 hour weeks as the norm and a hope for shorter hours is not the reason for making the career move and I don't have any illusion that going rural or small town as opposed to urban would mean shorter hours - obviously there are a number of factors that dictate this which you hint to when you mention the difference between private and public practice in the same sort of geographic region. 

  • Like 1
SNAILS
  • Articling Student
Posted

I asked one of the juniors at a small firm in family practice, and he says his boss expects 20-25 hours billable per week. A senior lawyer at another form said that seems about right.

This seems OK since the yearly target would then fall roughly between 950 and 1250 billable hours  (assuming vacation) compared to big law corporate in Toronto which I hear could be a target of 1800 billable a year (about 35 hours average per week assuming very little or no vacation).

Family law work (especially if there is a lot of certificate work) is it's own beast. On one hand, it is hard to bill any one client for large chunks of time in a day (You can't just work 10 hours on their file in one day unless perhaps you prepped their trial from start to finish). There's a lot of wasted time with clients that don't end up retaining, dead ends researching, clients calling just to vent, etc. On the other hand, there is a fair amount of legal assistant help, with legal assistants and paralegals sometimes outnumbering the lawyers, and 1:1 ratio being normally the minimum. 

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