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Big Law Salary Increase


Ivermectin4President

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RaginaldPipin
  • Lawyer
1 hour ago, JohnsonWest said:

You're way off lol. If this was true the many young equity partners I know at my firm (and various others) wouldn't be buying homes in Deep Cove, Kits, and the North Shore even in this current market. You very likely do not earn more than most equity partners in Van as a 4th year call. 

I know many plumbers and electricians buying Kits homes too. What does that even indicate? How about their spouses’ incomes? Equity gains from prior purchases? Parent gifts? Anyhow, let’s try to stay on track. My numbers aren’t off, they’re about right for the average equity partner in Vancouver. Sure, some may be pulling in $650-800k, but those are the outliers. 
 

instead of listening to your friends about their incomes (into which I would not put too much faith, unless of course you saw their returns), chat with some downtown accounting partners. They’ll tell you the numbers because they file the returns for most of these earners, no bs.

Edited by RaginaldPipin
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JohnsonWest
  • Lawyer
9 hours ago, Hitman9172 said:

RaginaldPipin might be underselling equity partnership income in Vancouver a bit, but he's not too far off. I've seen the financials for equity partners at my national firm and spoken to a handful of equity partner friends at other downtown firms. The average is higher than what he quoted, but it's usually skewed upwards by a few heavy hitters who bring in most of the clients.

It's just not at all in line with what I know and what I see. Most of the equity partners at my firm are not far off 7 figures. And some are well into the 7 figures but that might be the heavy hitters you refer to.

Anyway I don't know about your firm but I have no reason to distrust you. 

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JohnsonWest
  • Lawyer
8 hours ago, RaginaldPipin said:

I know many plumbers and electricians buying Kits homes too. What does that even indicate? How about their spouses’ incomes? Equity gains from prior purchases? Parent gifts? Anyhow, let’s try to stay on track. My numbers aren’t off, they’re about right for the average equity partner in Vancouver. Sure, some may be pulling in $650-800k, but those are the outliers. 
 

instead of listening to your friends about their incomes (into which I would not put too much faith, unless of course you saw their returns), chat with some downtown accounting partners. They’ll tell you the numbers because they file the returns for most of these earners, no bs.

It's hard having this discussion without going into too much detail, but let's just say I know of a few young equity partners who are single and do not come from wealthy families that were able to buy very nice homes in the regions I just mentioned. I'm not "listening to my friends about their incomes", I have access to some of the data as Hitman alluded to. Some of these people have taken me through the documents and shared with me just exactly how the pie breaks down in what proportion, etc.  I also have access to accountants that I use myself who do not agree with the numbers you've put out there. 

You've done very well for yourself going out on your own and I applaud you. But you lose credibility when you make assertions about how you earn, as a 4th year call, more than what an equity partner in Van earns. You likely do not earn more than what an equity partner in Van earns just as how you don't earn more than what an equity partner in Toronto makes. More power to you and I hope you continue to kill it. 

 

Edited by JohnsonWest
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BlockedQuebecois
  • Lawyer

Just south of seven figures is north of what most equity partners in Vancouver are making, at least based on my understanding of compensation at a good mix of national and leading regional firms. I agree with @Hitman9172that half a mill average is a slight undersell, but it’s a lot closer to that than 1m. 

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Hitman9172
  • Lawyer
8 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Just south of seven figures is north of what most equity partners in Vancouver are making, at least based on my understanding of compensation at a good mix of national and leading regional firms. I agree with @Hitman9172that half a mill average is a slight undersell, but it’s a lot closer to that than 1m. 

I've heard from a reliable source that the average profit per equity partner at the most profitable "big" firm in Vancouver was about $800-$850k (this was about 2 years ago - just before COVID). Apparently they had some lawyers pushing $2 million so the average was definitely being skewed upwards by the big rainmakers.

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carlill
  • Lawyer

Just adding this post from the Partnership Tracks thread.

Article in the Globe today reporting, most importantly, on the pay gaps in Big Law, but including the kind of detail seldom disclosed by Bay Street.

Blakes: "Equity partner compensation ranged from $625,000 to $5,250,000. The average was about $1.4 million."

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asparagus4444
  • Lawyer
On 9/23/2021 at 4:53 PM, nayaab05 said:

Not all. There’s at least one that didn’t pay their articling students the 5k bonus. 

Are you able to share which firms didn’t pay?

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BlushAndTheBar
  • Law Student
12 hours ago, Hitman9172 said:

I've heard from a reliable source that the average profit per equity partner at the most profitable "big" firm in Vancouver was about $800-$850k (this was about 2 years ago - just before COVID). Apparently they had some lawyers pushing $2 million so the average was definitely being skewed upwards by the big rainmakers.

I apologize in advance for not adding anything meaningful to this discourse-- but making a salary in the millions is completely unimaginable to me. That's insane! Probably because i'm a student who didn't get a big law position and will likely never see those numbers, but still... 2 million oh my god

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Pantalaimon
  • Lawyer
11 minutes ago, BlushAndTheBar said:

I apologize in advance for not adding anything meaningful to this discourse-- but making a salary in the millions is completely unimaginable to me. That's insane! Probably because i'm a student who didn't get a big law position and will likely never see those numbers, but still... 2 million oh my god

Most big law types won't reach equity partner either. It's not as bad as the U.S., there's a clearer path to partnership, but it's a life a lot of people don't want. There's a reason a lot of associates jump to in-house after a few years.

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Lycidas
  • Law Student
16 minutes ago, C_Terror said:

I'm certain that's not true.

Oh whoops though this was referring to articling hireback-bonuses, not bonuses paid out to current articling students. In that case, Blakes and Osler did not pay students for accepting articling offers. 

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asparagus4444
  • Lawyer
6 minutes ago, Lycidas said:

Oh whoops though this was referring to articling hireback-bonuses, not bonuses paid out to current articling students. In that case, Blakes and Osler did not pay students for accepting articling offers. 

No problem, thanks for chiming in.

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C_Terror
  • Lawyer
11 minutes ago, asparagus4444 said:

No problem, thanks for chiming in.

FWIW, I think the sisters (except for Davies apparently) and a lot of the larger full service firms paid out the Covid bonuses for articling students and retention bonuses for associates. In my opinion, this set up an expectation among associates that the firms would match or respond to the Cassels salary bump. 

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asparagus4444
  • Lawyer
38 minutes ago, BlushAndTheBar said:

I apologize in advance for not adding anything meaningful to this discourse-- but making a salary in the millions is completely unimaginable to me. That's insane! Probably because i'm a student who didn't get a big law position and will likely never see those numbers, but still... 2 million oh my god

If it’s any consolation, I feel the same way and I’m an associate. I definitely thought that I would feel more financially stable by this point but the opportunity cost of attending law school has been huge. Also, when you look at how many actual hours I spend working daily (not just billables) versus my salary, it’s fairly depressing. World’s smallest violin, but the lifestyle and mental health cost of being constantly on call has been heavy, especially during an isolating pandemic. I also don’t see myself being able to afford property in Toronto for a while yet. Those numbers are super unfathomable to me as well.

4 minutes ago, C_Terror said:

FWIW, I think the sisters (except for Davies apparently) and a lot of the larger full service firms paid out the Covid bonuses for articling students and retention bonuses for associates. In my opinion, this set up an expectation among associates that the firms would match or respond to the Cassels salary bump. 

Yup, clearly people in this thread were on point about upper management’s perspectives at other firms, which still shocks me. I am nonetheless super disappointed in Bay St right now.

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I really enjoyed my five years working on Bay St, but doing it during a pandemic and working from home would have taken away pretty much everything I enjoyed about the job, and left everything I disliked about it. I really feel for everyone who is struggling through this at a more junior level.

It is hard for me, and I am completely secure in my career, competence, financial security etc.

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Rashabon
  • Lawyer
18 minutes ago, C_Terror said:

FWIW, I think the sisters (except for Davies apparently) and a lot of the larger full service firms paid out the Covid bonuses for articling students and retention bonuses for associates. In my opinion, this set up an expectation among associates that the firms would match or respond to the Cassels salary bump. 

My expectation remains the same that they will pay bonuses at year-end because the Cassels bump increases salaries for those that haven't worked as hard, and is also permanent.

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Ivermectin4President
  • Lawyer

Someone viewing this thread has shared the following with me: 

“Cassels also paid the market rate for retention bonus earlier this year, this raise isn't in lieu. So an additional bonus would be the least the other firms should do if they're not matching the raise.”

 

 

 

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BlockedQuebecois
  • Lawyer

The least they could do is not care at all about what Cassels does. Averaged across the top firms, it's unlikely they'll lose more than a single associate to Cassels.

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C_Terror
  • Lawyer
57 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

My expectation remains the same that they will pay bonuses at year-end because the Cassels bump increases salaries for those that haven't worked as hard, and is also permanent.

Agreed, this is in the best financial interests of management to protect partners' pay outs at their firm. 

However, associates in non-Cassels/BJ/Davies firms get shafted here, since it's likely going to be just a one time thing vs a permanent raise at Cassels, and now the traditional year end bonus will ALSO be skewed due to the 20-25K base differential. 

And since I'm an associate, in one of these firms, well, this is less than ideal haha.

 

7 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

The least they could do is not care at all about what Cassels does. Averaged across the top firms, it's unlikely they'll lose more than a single associate to Cassels.

Points that have been raised in this thread isn't that firms will lose (even more than the huge amount of attrition they've been seeing this year) associates to Cassels. It's that the Cassels raise is well known across the street now and firms not even acknowledging the raise would hurt morale even more. The top firms aren't going to lose (much) associates to Cassels, but this may just push those on the fence currently to go to the states or inhouse. 

Edited by C_Terror
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BlockedQuebecois
  • Lawyer

I think it’s more likely than not firms will give a discretionary bonus (or perhaps just an above average year-end bonus) to avoid paying less than Cassels.

But I don’t think firms are likely to see a material increase in attrition because Cassels pays more, no more than I think attrition rates at non-Davies sister firms are driven by BJs paying more than them (read: not at all).

I am also doubtful that if they did see an increase in attrition, they’d attribute it to Cassels rather than some other factor (even if factually that increase was attributable to Cassels). 

I think people are overestimating how much the leadership at Blakes/Osler/etc. spends their time thinking about what Cassels does. If other firms move, then the big firms will worry. But for now, they’re clearly happy to let Cassels match BJs by itself. 

And who knows, maybe the hit to the partnership draw shakes some partners lose for the big firms to poach. If I were a partner at Cassels looking at a haircut on my draw and reading in the G&M about how partners at Blakes make nearly double what I make…

Edited by BlockedQuebecois
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Closing Folders
  • Law Student
2 hours ago, Lycidas said:

At least one Sister firm is actively considering 20k raises for first-years. 

Any additional information you can provide?

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