Average Salary?

[EastOT]

hi everyone,

Planning on hopefully attending Osgoode in the 2022-2023 year and was just wondering what the average salary is like working for a corporate firm. My current guess is about 50-60k while articling and then 60-80k starting once employed full time? Just curious what the avg ball park is. Also, is it tough landing a job upon graduating?

Thanks in advance 🙂

[ClarkGriswold]

Some potentially useful Bay Street info here:

 https://ultravires.ca/2019/07/mccarthy-tetrault-raises-articling-pay-to-1900-per-week/

Pulled from article:

Associate salaries at most Bay Street firms now start at $110,000, following a raise last summer from $100,000. It was the first raise since 2007 for associates.

The salary grid for most Bay Street firms is now: 

Articling: $88,400 ($1,700 per week annualized) 

First-year: $110,000 

Second-year: $130,000

Third-year: $150,000 

Fourth-year: $170,000

Fifth-year: $180,000

Sixth-year: $200,000

Edited September 14, 2021 by ClarkGriswold

[EastOT]

1 hour ago, ClarkGriswold said:

Some potentially useful Bay Street info here:

 https://ultravires.ca/2019/07/mccarthy-tetrault-raises-articling-pay-to-1900-per-week/

Pulled from article:

Associate salaries at most Bay Street firms now start at $110,000, following a raise last summer from $100,000. It was the first raise since 2007 for associates.

The salary grid for most Bay Street firms is now: 

Articling: $88,400 ($1,700 per week annualized) 

First-year: $110,000 

Second-year: $130,000

Third-year: $150,000 

Fourth-year: $170,000

Fifth-year: $180,000

Sixth-year: $200,000

thanks for sharing this! Had no clue the salary range was this high. 

[Pendragon]

2 hours ago, EastOT said:

thanks for sharing this! Had no clue the salary range was this high. 

You didn't think the salary range for corporate lawyers was this high? Sure, it's not medicine, but you still need to go through many years of schooling and standardized testing to get here. If undergrad business and computer science students are making 80k+ right out the gate, why would you expect anything less for corporate lawyers?

[CleanHands]

1 minute ago, Pendragon said:

You didn't think the salary range for corporate lawyers was this high? Sure, it's not medicine, but you still need to go through many years of schooling and standardized testing to get here. If undergrad business and computer science students are making 80k+ right out the gate, why would you expect anything less for corporate lawyers?

I mean, people outside the field generally have no clue what lawyers in various areas of various experience make, and what constitutes a high salary is relative and people have very different perceptions of it.

You mention some particularly lucrative undergrads (with starting salaries that are well above the natural average income) but most people are unemployable out of undergrad and can never hope to make that kind of money. And a lot of lawyers don't make BigLaw money and people could have had some exposure/insight into that first.

I don't think the OP's surprise is unreasonable at all. And it's a good attitude to have.

[Pendragon]

1 minute ago, CleanHands said:

I mean, people outside the field generally have no clue what lawyers in various areas of various experience make, and what constitutes a high salary is relative and people have very different perceptions of it.

You mention some particularly lucrative undergrads (with starting salaries that are well above the natural average income) but most people are unemployable out of undergrad and can never hope to make that kind of money. And a lot of lawyers don't make BigLaw money and people could have had some exposure/insight into that first.

I don't think the OP's surprise is unreasonable at all. And it's a good attitude to have.

You are correct, but even if you knew nothing at all about law, when a layperson hears about any job related to working on Bay Street, you can assume that the salary range will be quite high. It's the centre of Canada's financial services industry, so I am just surprised that OP appears to be a corporate gunner and is not aware of this. 

[EastOT]

7 minutes ago, Pendragon said:

You didn't think the salary range for corporate lawyers was this high? Sure, it's not medicine, but you still need to go through many years of schooling and standardized testing to get here. If undergrad business and computer science students are making 80k+ right out the gate, why would you expect anything less for corporate lawyers?

I admittedly believe my underestimations of the salary range came from seeing lawyers complain about wages and lack of employment years ago on a sub-Reddit lmao. I did of course assume some positions paid 100k+, but assumed they were reserved for more experienced and qualified lawyers with years of practice

[Apple]

Corporate firms aren't just Bay Street firms. Salaries at other non-bay street firms range from $40,000 - $60,000 for Articling and then $70,000 - $90,000 for first year calls. It's good to know generally what the market outside of Bay is looking like as you may not get onto Bay and or may not want to. 

As for landing a job, it's competitive enough. I never really got the sense that things were super competitive, but admittedly that was likely because I was a competitive applicant. You'll have to do very well to land on Bay but can do decently well to land jobs elsewhere. 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Apple

[LegalPossom]

I'd recommend checking out the NALP. Most big firms have salaries posted here and you can see the variation in salaries per city (if Toronto isn't your jam)

https://www.nalpcanada.com

Some big law firms to try out as examples (to get you started): 

Borden Ladner Gervais

Blake, Cassels & Graydon

Davies Ward Phillips & Vineberg

Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt

[hellohi]

On 9/13/2021 at 10:23 PM, ClarkGriswold said:

Some potentially useful Bay Street info here:

 https://ultravires.ca/2019/07/mccarthy-tetrault-raises-articling-pay-to-1900-per-week/

Pulled from article:

Associate salaries at most Bay Street firms now start at $110,000, following a raise last summer from $100,000. It was the first raise since 2007 for associates.

The salary grid for most Bay Street firms is now: 

Articling: $88,400 ($1,700 per week annualized) 

First-year: $110,000 

Second-year: $130,000

Third-year: $150,000 

Fourth-year: $170,000

Fifth-year: $180,000

Sixth-year: $200,000

So this would be at the very top of the compensation curve for lawyers, controlling for experience and years worked of course? I'm curious if there are any compensation figures out there for people that go into other areas of law - I presume it would be much lower. Even for corporate law itself of Bay Street, I wonder to what extent salaries would differ.  

On 9/14/2021 at 2:26 AM, Pendragon said:

You didn't think the salary range for corporate lawyers was this high? Sure, it's not medicine, but you still need to go through many years of schooling and standardized testing to get here. If undergrad business and computer science students are making 80k+ right out the gate, why would you expect anything less for corporate lawyers?

Family doctors that have finished residency start out with a higher gross income then what a bay-street lawyer would be taking home at year six according to the above stats. I'm curious how many lawyers end up making more than family physicians or other sorts of medical professionals in the long run. Do lawyers that aren't working excessively at a bay street firm or who make partner in a law firm ever end up making more than the average physician?

On 9/14/2021 at 2:31 AM, CleanHands said:

I mean, people outside the field generally have no clue what lawyers in various areas of various experience make, and what constitutes a high salary is relative and people have very different perceptions of it.

You mention some particularly lucrative undergrads (with starting salaries that are well above the natural average income) but most people are unemployable out of undergrad and can never hope to make that kind of money. And a lot of lawyers don't make BigLaw money and people could have had some exposure/insight into that first.

I don't think the OP's surprise is unreasonable at all. And it's a good attitude to have.

It's quite unfortunate how many people graduate from undergrad with debt and sparse job prospects.

In terms of lawyers specifically, what is the compensation like for those that don't go into BigLaw? 

[Pecan Boy]

9 minutes ago, hellohi said:

Do lawyers that aren't working excessively at a bay street firm or who make partner in a law firm ever end up making more than the average physician?

Probably not.

9 minutes ago, hellohi said:

In terms of lawyers specifically, what is the compensation like for those that don't go into BigLaw? 

Far too variant to even say. You'd have to specify what field(s) you're interested in for people to help you out.

[WhoKnows]

Average family physician in Ontario is around 220-240, right? 

There are definitely non-bay street corporate lawyers making more than that. Non-partners, I mean I am sure some in-house counsel make that. Some gov. counsel too at the high and senior ranks. There are definitely non-bay, non corporate partners making those numbers, though they're going to be partners/founders. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by WhoKnows

[Pecan Boy]

36 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

Average family physician in Ontario is around 220-240, right? 

There are definitely non-bay street corporate lawyers making more than that. Non-partners, I mean I am sure some in-house counsel make that. Some gov. counsel too at the high and senior ranks. There are definitely non-bay, non corporate partners making those numbers, though they're going to be partners/founders. 

Fair - honestly, I misread the question. I didn't realize he/she said "do they ever make more than that," my bad. 

 

[hellohi]

4 hours ago, Pecan Boy said:

Probably not.

Far too variant to even say. You'd have to specify what field(s) you're interested in for people to help you out.

My apologies, I shouldn't have used the word ever. What I meant to ask was whether it is feasible or realistic rather than rare or exceptional. 

I'm looking for data across all fields of law. Basically what ClarkGriswold posted for BayStreet, but for different fields of law. I'm not sure if such a resource exists beyond what I can find on https://www.nalpcanada.com/

3 hours ago, WhoKnows said:

Average family physician in Ontario is around 220-240, right? 

There are definitely non-bay street corporate lawyers making more than that. Non-partners, I mean I am sure some in-house counsel make that. Some gov. counsel too at the high and senior ranks. There are definitely non-bay, non corporate partners making those numbers, though they're going to be partners/founders. 

Sounds about right, although I think it can be both above and below that figure depending on province, location, number of patients etc.

https://www.albertadoctors.org/about/understanding-docs-pay

Albertan family docs are paid $339,760 on average. A large portion of this goes toward covering overhead costs, and you can't forget about taxes. I'm sure there are non-bay street corporate lawyers that beat this, as well as in-house counsel etc, but I'm not sure how common it is.

[brokenegg]

On 9/14/2021 at 11:34 AM, Pendragon said:

You are correct, but even if you knew nothing at all about law, when a layperson hears about any job related to working on Bay Street, you can assume that the salary range will be quite high. It's the centre of Canada's financial services industry, so I am just surprised that OP appears to be a corporate gunner and is not aware of this. 

Just as an aside, it’s an over-generalization to say that laypeople outside of Ontario really care about Bay Street and its salaries lol. 😀

 

I personally didn’t know about the specifics of Bay Street and its job prospects until I visited Toronto this summer! heh. 

[Pendragon]

15 minutes ago, brokenegg said:

Just as an aside, it’s an over-generalization to say that laypeople outside of Ontario really care about Bay Street and its salaries lol. 😀

 

I personally didn’t know about the specifics of Bay Street and its job prospects until I visited Toronto this summer! heh. 

I think I got spoiled with all the people I know claiming to make six figure salaries. A lot of people in their 20s come out of top business, computer science, software engineering, and applied STEM programs (at U of T and Waterloo specifically), and go work on Bay Street or in the US and make a lot of money. Personal Finance Canada on Reddit is filled with people in their 20s and 30s claiming to make 100k+ salaries. We know Big law pays a lot of money too. I wasn't sure how much corporate lawyers outside of Big law made though, as the salary varies. 

[WhoKnows]

20 hours ago, hellohi said:

Albertan family docs are paid $339,760 on average. A large portion of this goes toward covering overhead costs, and you can't forget about taxes. I'm sure there are non-bay street corporate lawyers that beat this, as well as in-house counsel etc, but I'm not sure how common it is.

Not uncommon. In the corporate/business law world it's often ex-biglawers who built books of business and went out on their own. I know firms in L&E, corp/commercial litigation, Corporate/Securities where the more senior partners are DEFINITELY making that sort of money (340 less 30% overhead for around 240 gross salary). Not in the sense I've seen the books - in the sense I know how much work they do.

Other areas of practice are a bit outside my lane - so I'd let others comment. Totally unsure if you can eventually scale to those numbers in family, immigration, real estate, etc. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by WhoKnows