Average Salary?

[EastOT]

hi everyone,

Posted this in the Osgoode section but figured I'd ask here as well.

Planning on hopefully attending Osgoode in the 2022-2023 year and was just wondering what the average salary is like working for a corporate firm. My current guess is about 50-60k while articling and then 60-80k starting once employed full time? Just curious what the avg ball park is. Also, is it tough landing a job upon graduating?

Thanks in advance 🙂

[QMT20]

In Toronto it's 1900/week for 10-months during articling which works out to around 80k. First-year associates make 110k base (for now) and then get a bonus based on hitting billable targets. 

Landing a job at a full-service law firm, which does the kind of work you'd typically think of as "corporate law" can be competitive but not unattainable. U of T lands about 50% of their class in those types of jobs. Osgoode, Western, and Queen's land between 27-33%. However, almost everyone finds an articling position somewhere by the time of or shortly after graduating (think 95%). 

Edited September 14, 2021 by QMT20

[Avatar Aang]

2 hours ago, QMT20 said:

In Toronto it's 1900/week for 10-months during articling which works out to around 80k. First-year associates make 110k base (for now) and then get a bonus based on hitting billable targets. 

Landing a job at a full-service law firm, which does the kind of work you'd typically think of as "corporate law" can be competitive but not unattainable. U of T lands about 50% of their class in those types of jobs. Osgoode, Western, and Queen's land between 27-33%. However, almost everyone finds an articling position somewhere by the time of or shortly after graduating (think 95%). 

Yea, and that's just for OCI placements alone. Many students land corporate jobs outside OCIs and during the articling recruit. And, as we have seen in the past year alone, there are tons of movement from small firms to mid-sized corporate firms and boutiques, and mid-sized corporate films and boutiques to Big law. Everyone I know that wanted a corporate law job has one by now. There are lots of opportunities for this work compared to other niche areas of law. 

[EastOT]

3 hours ago, QMT20 said:

In Toronto it's 1900/week for 10-months during articling which works out to around 80k. First-year associates make 110k base (for now) and then get a bonus based on hitting billable targets. 

Landing a job at a full-service law firm, which does the kind of work you'd typically think of as "corporate law" can be competitive but not unattainable. U of T lands about 50% of their class in those types of jobs. Osgoode, Western, and Queen's land between 27-33%. However, almost everyone finds an articling position somewhere by the time of or shortly after graduating (think 95%). 

 

15 minutes ago, Avatar Aang said:

Yea, and that's just for OCI placements alone. Many students land corporate jobs outside OCIs and during the articling recruit. And, as we have seen in the past year alone, there are tons of movement from small firms to mid-sized corporate firms and boutiques, and mid-sized corporate films and boutiques to Big law. Everyone I know that wanted a corporate law job has one by now. There are lots of opportunities for this work compared to other niche areas of law. 

Wow, this is much higher than I had initially expected (not complaining). Would you say it isn't too difficult to land at a job at a full-service firm after graduating from Osgoode with decent grades?

[Pendragon]

2 hours ago, EastOT said:

 

Wow, this is much higher than I had initially expected (not complaining). Would you say it isn't too difficult to land at a job at a full-service firm after graduating from Osgoode with decent grades?

http://ultravires.ca/2021/05/toronto-summer-2021-2l-recruit-numbers/ 

You can find the numbers for the previous years on Ultra Vires. While some firms like Davies is highly selective, landing a Biglaw job in general is not as difficult as you may think. Even if you strike out during the 2L recruit, people land corporate jobs through other avenues and easily lateral into Biglaw. A lot of people I know that didn't land full-service firms in law school are working there now after a year or two of being called. There are hundreds of lawyers working at each firm so tons of opportunities to make these moves. 

[EastOT]

7 minutes ago, Pendragon said:

http://ultravires.ca/2021/05/toronto-summer-2021-2l-recruit-numbers/ 

You can find the numbers for the previous years on Ultra Vires. While some firms like Davies is highly selective, landing a Biglaw job in general is not as difficult as you may think. Even if you strike out during the 2L recruit, people land corporate jobs through other avenues and easily lateral into Biglaw. A lot of people I know that didn't land full-service firms in law school are working there now after a year or two of being called. There are hundreds of lawyers working at each firm so tons of opportunities to make these moves. 

thanks for the response, it is re-assuring to hear that attaining a Bay Street job is relatively doable. Just curious, what is an alternative route for those who are unable to land a position in a full-service firm during the 2l recruit?

[Pendragon]

2 hours ago, EastOT said:

thanks for the response, it is re-assuring to hear that attaining a Bay Street job is relatively doable. Just curious, what is an alternative route for those who are unable to land a position in a full-service firm during the 2l recruit?

I can only speak about the Toronto market. You don't need to work at a full-service firm to get experience in these areas of law.

https://www.osler.com/en/expertise/services

Many full-service firms have a Private Client Services group, where they provide services in areas such as wills and estates, insurance (Miller Thomson and Borden Ladner Gervais), and family law (Miller Thomson's Vaughan office).

There are full-service regional firms like Fogler, Rubinoff; Shibley Righton; Siskinds; Loopstra Nixon; Goldman Sloan Nash; Brauti Thorning; Mills & Mills; Minden Gross; Gardiner Roberts; WeirFoulds; Macdonald Sager Manis; Blaney McMurtry; Torkin Manes; Pallett Valo; and Lerners.

There are corporate boutiques like Chaitons; Wildeboer Dellelce; Thornton Grout Finnigan; LaBarge Weinstein; Dale & Lessmann; Owens Wright; and Robins Appleby.

Some people summer and article in government then go into Biglaw: 

Ministry of Labour -> Biglaw in the Employment and Labour practice group;

Information and Privacy Commissioner for Ontario -> Biglaw in the Technology and Privacy group;

Environment and Land Tribunals Ontario -> Biglaw in the Municipal and Environmental groups;

Constitutional Law Branch -> Biglaw in the Litigation and Public Law groups; 

Ministries of Municipal Affairs & Housing -> Biglaw in the Municipal, Planning, and Environmental groups;

Ministry of Health -> Biglaw in the Health and Privacy groups.

There are Crown corporations and regulatory agencies like the Ontario Securities Commission; Tarion Warranty Corporation; Hydro One; Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario; Metrolinx; Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corporation; and Ontario Power Generation.

There are commercial real estate firms like Brattys; Harris Sheaffer; DelZotto, Zorzi; and Daoust Vukovich.

There are condominium firms like Deacon, Spears and Elia Associates.

There are intellectual property firms like Deeth Williams; Gilbert's; Belmore Neidrauer; Smart & Biggar; Bereskin & Parr; Method Law; and Ridout & Maybee.

There are tax firms like Millar Kreklewetz; Farber Tax; Drache Aptowitzer; Counter Tax; Rosen Kirshen; Rotfleisch & Samulovitch; TaxChambers; Thorsteinssons; Deloitte; KPMG; PwC, and EY.

There are securities firms like BAX Securities; Peterson McVicar; Irwin Lowy; and Groia & Company.

There are environmental firms like Willms & Shier.

There are construction firms like Glaholt and Singleton Urquhart Reynolds Vogel.

There are class actions firms like Orr Taylor.

There are management-side employment firms like Filion Wakely; Whitten & Lublin; Williams HR Law; Hicks Morley; Shields O'Donnell; Ogletree Deakins; Levitt; MacLeod; Sherrard Kuzz; Littler; Rae Christen Jeffries; and Mathews, Dinsdale & Clark.

There are indigenous firms like Hensel Barristers; Pape Salter Teillet; Olthuis, Kleer, Townshend; Nahwegahbow, Corbiere; and Westaway Law Group.

There are banks like TD; RBC; and UBS. 

There are international firms like Clyde & Co LLP and Dickinson Wright.

There are in-house positions like Loblaws; Ivanhoé Cambridge; Manulife; Kraft Heinz; and Fidelity Investments.

[EastOT]

12 hours ago, Pendragon said:

I can only speak about the Toronto market. You don't need to work at a full-service firm to get experience in these areas of law.

https://www.osler.com/en/expertise/services

Many full-service firms have a Private Client Services group, where they provide services in areas such as wills and estates, insurance (Miller Thomson and Borden Ladner Gervais), and family law (Miller Thomson's Vaughan office).

There are full-service regional firms like Fogler, Rubinoff; Shibley Righton; Siskinds; Loopstra Nixon; Goldman Sloan Nash; Brauti Thorning; Mills & Mills; Minden Gross; Gardiner Roberts; WeirFoulds; Macdonald Sager Manis; Blaney McMurtry; Torkin Manes; Pallett Valo; and Lerners.

There are corporate boutiques like Chaitons; Wildeboer Dellelce; Thornton Grout Finnigan; LaBarge Weinstein; Dale & Lessmann; Owens Wright; and Robins Appleby.

Some people summer and article in government then go into Biglaw: 

Ministry of Labour -> Biglaw in the Employment and Labour practice group;

Information and Privacy Commissioner for Ontario -> Biglaw in the Technology and Privacy group;

Environment and Land Tribunals Ontario -> Biglaw in the Municipal and Environmental groups;

Constitutional Law Branch -> Biglaw in the Litigation and Public Law groups; 

Ministries of Municipal Affairs & Housing -> Biglaw in the Municipal, Planning, and Environmental groups;

Ministry of Health -> Biglaw in the Health and Privacy groups.

There are Crown corporations and regulatory agencies like the Ontario Securities Commission; Tarion Warranty Corporation; Hydro One; Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario; Metrolinx; Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corporation; and Ontario Power Generation.

There are commercial real estate firms like Brattys; Harris Sheaffer; DelZotto, Zorzi; and Daoust Vukovich.

There are condominium firms like Deacon, Spears and Elia Associates.

There are intellectual property firms like Deeth Williams; Gilbert's; Belmore Neidrauer; Smart & Biggar; Bereskin & Parr; Method Law; and Ridout & Maybee.

There are tax firms like Millar Kreklewetz; Farber Tax; Drache Aptowitzer; Counter Tax; Rosen Kirshen; Rotfleisch & Samulovitch; TaxChambers; Thorsteinssons; Deloitte; KPMG; PwC, and EY.

There are securities firms like BAX Securities; Peterson McVicar; Irwin Lowy; and Groia & Company.

There are environmental firms like Willms & Shier.

There are construction firms like Glaholt and Singleton Urquhart Reynolds Vogel.

There are class actions firms like Orr Taylor.

There are management-side employment firms like Filion Wakely; Whitten & Lublin; Williams HR Law; Hicks Morley; Shields O'Donnell; Ogletree Deakins; Levitt; MacLeod; Sherrard Kuzz; Littler; Rae Christen Jeffries; and Mathews, Dinsdale & Clark.

There are indigenous firms like Hensel Barristers; Pape Salter Teillet; Olthuis, Kleer, Townshend; Nahwegahbow, Corbiere; and Westaway Law Group.

There are banks like TD; RBC; and UBS. 

There are international firms like Clyde & Co LLP and Dickinson Wright.

There are in-house positions like Loblaws; Ivanhoé Cambridge; Manulife; Kraft Heinz; and Fidelity Investments.

this was very helpful, thank you!

[Geworfenheit]

On 9/14/2021 at 5:01 PM, Pendragon said:

I can only speak about the Toronto market. You don't need to work at a full-service firm to get experience in these areas of law.

https://www.osler.com/en/expertise/services

Many full-service firms have a Private Client Services group, where they provide services in areas such as wills and estates, insurance (Miller Thomson and Borden Ladner Gervais), and family law (Miller Thomson's Vaughan office).

There are full-service regional firms like Fogler, Rubinoff; Shibley Righton; Siskinds; Loopstra Nixon; Goldman Sloan Nash; Brauti Thorning; Mills & Mills; Minden Gross; Gardiner Roberts; WeirFoulds; Macdonald Sager Manis; Blaney McMurtry; Torkin Manes; Pallett Valo; and Lerners.

There are corporate boutiques like Chaitons; Wildeboer Dellelce; Thornton Grout Finnigan; LaBarge Weinstein; Dale & Lessmann; Owens Wright; and Robins Appleby.

Some people summer and article in government then go into Biglaw: 

Ministry of Labour -> Biglaw in the Employment and Labour practice group;

Information and Privacy Commissioner for Ontario -> Biglaw in the Technology and Privacy group;

Environment and Land Tribunals Ontario -> Biglaw in the Municipal and Environmental groups;

Constitutional Law Branch -> Biglaw in the Litigation and Public Law groups; 

Ministries of Municipal Affairs & Housing -> Biglaw in the Municipal, Planning, and Environmental groups;

Ministry of Health -> Biglaw in the Health and Privacy groups.

There are Crown corporations and regulatory agencies like the Ontario Securities Commission; Tarion Warranty Corporation; Hydro One; Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario; Metrolinx; Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corporation; and Ontario Power Generation.

There are commercial real estate firms like Brattys; Harris Sheaffer; DelZotto, Zorzi; and Daoust Vukovich.

There are condominium firms like Deacon, Spears and Elia Associates.

There are intellectual property firms like Deeth Williams; Gilbert's; Belmore Neidrauer; Smart & Biggar; Bereskin & Parr; Method Law; and Ridout & Maybee.

There are tax firms like Millar Kreklewetz; Farber Tax; Drache Aptowitzer; Counter Tax; Rosen Kirshen; Rotfleisch & Samulovitch; TaxChambers; Thorsteinssons; Deloitte; KPMG; PwC, and EY.

There are securities firms like BAX Securities; Peterson McVicar; Irwin Lowy; and Groia & Company.

There are environmental firms like Willms & Shier.

There are construction firms like Glaholt and Singleton Urquhart Reynolds Vogel.

There are class actions firms like Orr Taylor.

There are management-side employment firms like Filion Wakely; Whitten & Lublin; Williams HR Law; Hicks Morley; Shields O'Donnell; Ogletree Deakins; Levitt; MacLeod; Sherrard Kuzz; Littler; Rae Christen Jeffries; and Mathews, Dinsdale & Clark.

There are indigenous firms like Hensel Barristers; Pape Salter Teillet; Olthuis, Kleer, Townshend; Nahwegahbow, Corbiere; and Westaway Law Group.

There are banks like TD; RBC; and UBS. 

There are international firms like Clyde & Co LLP and Dickinson Wright.

There are in-house positions like Loblaws; Ivanhoé Cambridge; Manulife; Kraft Heinz; and Fidelity Investments.

This is a great and thorough list. However, I think almost half of these places only hire directly from the 2L formal recruit (for example: Fogler, Rubinoff, Wildeboer Dellelce, Smart & Biggar, and Whitten & Lublin) while the rest also hires from the articling recruit (like many government jobs and in-house positions). It's highly possible to lateral to Biglaw from these places after being called and gathering some experience - but you have to get into these places first and it's not that easy since they don't hire a lot. If someone strikes out during the 2L recruit, their chances of landing corporate jobs through other avenues would then largely decrease. By that point, I think people should be encouraged to explore other areas and places rather than only focus on the few remaining corporate related opportunities during the informal 2L recruit and the articling recruit.

[QMT20]

4 hours ago, Nachklang said:

This is a great and thorough list. However, I think almost half of these places only hire directly from the 2L formal recruit (for example: Fogler, Rubinoff, Wildeboer Dellelce, Smart & Biggar, and Whitten & Lublin) while the rest also hires from the articling recruit (like many government jobs and in-house positions). It's highly possible to lateral to Biglaw from these places after being called and gathering some experience - but you have to get into these places first and it's not that easy since they don't hire a lot. If someone strikes out during the 2L recruit, their chances of landing corporate jobs through other avenues would then largely decrease. By that point, I think people should be encouraged to explore other areas and places rather than only focus on the few remaining corporate related opportunities during the informal 2L recruit and the articling recruit.

Depends what you mean by "corporate" jobs. If you mean working in M&A or capital markets then it's much harder to break in if you don't land at a full service firm or corporate boutique in the recruit. You won't be getting experience that's directly related to those practices early on so you'll be at pretty big disadvantage for any openings later on.  

If by corporate you just mean a job in a full service law firm, groups like litigation, L&E, and IP often hire laterals from boutiques that participate in the articling recruit. So if you strike out during the 2L recruit but manage to get into a boutique that does commercial litigation, professional regulation, L&E etc. then it's very doable to apply for mid-level associate positions at the full service firms when you've got 3+ years experience under your belt. 

That said lots of litigation, L&E, and IP boutiques are great firms as well, so maybe you'll get comfortable where you are and won't want to lateral. 

[Lifeisgood]

On 9/14/2021 at 5:01 AM, Pendragon said:

I can only speak about the Toronto market. You don't need to work at a full-service firm to get experience in these areas of law.

https://www.osler.com/en/expertise/services

Many full-service firms have a Private Client Services group, where they provide services in areas such as wills and estates, insurance (Miller Thomson and Borden Ladner Gervais), and family law (Miller Thomson's Vaughan office).

There are full-service regional firms like Fogler, Rubinoff; Shibley Righton; Siskinds; Loopstra Nixon; Goldman Sloan Nash; Brauti Thorning; Mills & Mills; Minden Gross; Gardiner Roberts; WeirFoulds; Macdonald Sager Manis; Blaney McMurtry; Torkin Manes; Pallett Valo; and Lerners.

There are corporate boutiques like Chaitons; Wildeboer Dellelce; Thornton Grout Finnigan; LaBarge Weinstein; Dale & Lessmann; Owens Wright; and Robins Appleby.

Some people summer and article in government then go into Biglaw: 

Ministry of Labour -> Biglaw in the Employment and Labour practice group;

Information and Privacy Commissioner for Ontario -> Biglaw in the Technology and Privacy group;

Environment and Land Tribunals Ontario -> Biglaw in the Municipal and Environmental groups;

Constitutional Law Branch -> Biglaw in the Litigation and Public Law groups; 

Ministries of Municipal Affairs & Housing -> Biglaw in the Municipal, Planning, and Environmental groups;

Ministry of Health -> Biglaw in the Health and Privacy groups.

There are Crown corporations and regulatory agencies like the Ontario Securities Commission; Tarion Warranty Corporation; Hydro One; Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario; Metrolinx; Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corporation; and Ontario Power Generation.

There are commercial real estate firms like Brattys; Harris Sheaffer; DelZotto, Zorzi; and Daoust Vukovich.

There are condominium firms like Deacon, Spears and Elia Associates.

There are intellectual property firms like Deeth Williams; Gilbert's; Belmore Neidrauer; Smart & Biggar; Bereskin & Parr; Method Law; and Ridout & Maybee.

There are tax firms like Millar Kreklewetz; Farber Tax; Drache Aptowitzer; Counter Tax; Rosen Kirshen; Rotfleisch & Samulovitch; TaxChambers; Thorsteinssons; Deloitte; KPMG; PwC, and EY.

There are securities firms like BAX Securities; Peterson McVicar; Irwin Lowy; and Groia & Company.

There are environmental firms like Willms & Shier.

There are construction firms like Glaholt and Singleton Urquhart Reynolds Vogel.

There are class actions firms like Orr Taylor.

There are management-side employment firms like Filion Wakely; Whitten & Lublin; Williams HR Law; Hicks Morley; Shields O'Donnell; Ogletree Deakins; Levitt; MacLeod; Sherrard Kuzz; Littler; Rae Christen Jeffries; and Mathews, Dinsdale & Clark.

There are indigenous firms like Hensel Barristers; Pape Salter Teillet; Olthuis, Kleer, Townshend; Nahwegahbow, Corbiere; and Westaway Law Group.

There are banks like TD; RBC; and UBS. 

There are international firms like Clyde & Co LLP and Dickinson Wright.

There are in-house positions like Loblaws; Ivanhoé Cambridge; Manulife; Kraft Heinz; and Fidelity Investments.

Didn’t see personal injury law or litigation firms from here, what are the prospects of going into these firms? 

[99problems]

On 9/15/2021 at 5:44 AM, Nachklang said:

I think people should be encouraged to explore other areas and places rather than only focus on the few remaining corporate related opportunities during the informal 2L recruit and the articling recruit.

This is a valid point, but then lateraling to corporate-related areas would be significantly hard due to the lack of related experience in corporate law. Note that when I say corporate law, I am referring to the area as @QMT20 defined in response to your comment.

[Mr. Deeds]

Anyone know what BLG’s student salary is in Toronto? It’s not listed on NALP and I was just curious. 

[Kimura]

30 minutes ago, Mr. Deeds said:

Anyone know what BLG’s student salary is in Toronto? It’s not listed on NALP and I was just curious. 

Probably around $1900 a week.

[Mr. Deeds]

13 minutes ago, Kimura said:

Probably around $1900 a week.

I thought that too, but then I found an old 2020 NALP sheet that said $1450/wk. Not sure if that is still the case or not. Especially because it’s not actually listed on their website anymore. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Mr. Deeds

[Kimura]

3 hours ago, Mr. Deeds said:

I thought that too, but then I found an old 2020 NALP sheet that said $1450/wk. Not sure if that is still the case or not. Especially because it’s not actually listed on their website anymore. 

On their website re Toronto Summer Student compensation it says "Our students receive salary and benefits competitive with other large Toronto firms". The going rate for Bay St firms is currently $1900/week for summer students, so I'd say that's a safe assumption.