Securing non-OCI jobs

[capitalttruth]

Good evening.

I did not participate in the OCI recruit as I am not a 2L yet but I am in my second year of law school (2 out of 4 years). 

For anyone who secured a job outside of the OCI recruit, would you be able to share any tips that led you to success? When did you start e-mailing firms?

My goal is to get a summer position at a firm that practices Aboriginal law. I have experience in this field and I've prepared my CV and a skeleton cover letter to reflect this experience. If anyone got a job at a firm that does Aboriginal law outside of the OCI process, that would also help me. But general tips and ideas would also be a big help.

[Queens23]

33 minutes ago, capitalttruth said:

Good evening.

I did not participate in the OCI recruit as I am not a 2L yet but I am in my second year of law school (2 out of 4 years). 

For anyone who secured a job outside of the OCI recruit, would you be able to share any tips that led you to success? When did you start e-mailing firms?

My goal is to get a summer position at a firm that practices Aboriginal law. I have experience in this field and I've prepared my CV and a skeleton cover letter to reflect this experience. If anyone got a job at a firm that does Aboriginal law outside of the OCI process, that would also help me. But general tips and ideas would also be a big help.

Not to worry. Over the next several days, weeks, and months, there will be countless job postings that are made available through your school's career development office. About as many students (or perhaps more) will get a job this way. You can also reach out to firms directly and look at their websites to see if they are hiring. My recommendation would be to make an appointment with your CDO so that you formulate a plan of attack moving forward, but you are fairly likely to land a job in the next few weeks through career postings on your school's CDO website. Best of luck!

[katv8]

any idea how much Loopstra pays their summer/articling students?

[frankconners]

2 hours ago, katv8 said:

any idea how much Loopstra pays their summer/articling students?

Slightly below Bay Street. For reference, their associate salaries are generally a year behind Bay Street.

[sleeping]

2 minutes ago, frankconners said:

Slightly below Bay Street. For reference, their associate salaries are generally a year behind Bay Street.

Would this be the same for Blaney McCurtry and Minden Gross? 

[TimHortonsCup]

Are grades less of a factor for non-oci's, like Is a B avg okay?

[CleanHands]

1 minute ago, TimHortonsCup said:

Are grades less of a factor for non-oci's, like Is a B avg okay?

This entirely depends on the firm. There are elite boutique litigation firms that do not participate in OCIs and are much more competitive than BigLaw OCI employers, hiring almost exclusively appellate clerks, medalists, etc. There are also small shops doing crim, family law, etc, that will hire students with demonstrated interests in their practice area even if they are near the bottom of their class grades-wise. This is absolutely not a question that can be answered in broad strokes.

Of course B students can get jobs though. If they couldn't, more than half of any given class wouldn't secure articling positions.

[Avatar Aang]

3 minutes ago, TimHortonsCup said:

Are grades less of a factor for non-oci's, like Is a B avg okay?

More specifics needed - which employers and practice area? B average is ok even for OCI jobs. What else do you have on your profile to stand out? 

[katv8]

any idea how many people usually apply to Loopstra Nixon and Blaney? Seems like its a pretty competitive process to get either firm, especially with the influx of unsuccessful OCI applicants 

[listerine]

8 minutes ago, katv8 said:

any idea how many people usually apply to Loopstra Nixon and Blaney? Seems like its a pretty competitive process to get either firm, especially with the influx of unsuccessful OCI applicants 

https://precedentjd.com/news/cover-story-the-ocis-are-broken/

For Blaney:

Quote

 “I still get 400 applications, but the process is more relaxed,” says Orlando. “We interview about 40 students at our office and pick the top seven."

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by listerine

[katv8]

5 minutes ago, listerine said:

https://precedentjd.com/news/cover-story-the-ocis-are-broken/

For Blaney:

 

Thank you!

[QueensDenning]

Do most unsuccessful OCI applicants who made it far (I.e. third day) with a few firms end up securing a 2L summer? Do a lot of corporate boutiques still hire students or should we be focusing on other areas? 

[SlytherinLLP]

1 hour ago, QueensDenning said:

Do most unsuccessful OCI applicants who made it far (I.e. third day) with a few firms end up securing a 2L summer? Do a lot of corporate boutiques still hire students or should we be focusing on other areas? 

Yes, there are corporate boutiques participating in the articling recruit.

There are definitely students that secure business/corporate law 2L jobs post official recruit. If I remember right there was a wave of firms that clean up good candidates that struck out during the 2L recruit (granted you did not miss their application deadlines).

 

[mistertubby]

1 hour ago, QueensDenning said:

Do most unsuccessful OCI applicants who made it far (I.e. third day) with a few firms end up securing a 2L summer?

why would "making it far" at some firms be at all relevant to how you do at other firms?

[CleanHands]

2 minutes ago, mistertubby said:

why would "making it far" at some firms be at all relevant to how you do at other firms?

I think his point is just that he was a strong enough candidate to be competitive during OCIs. That is different than asking about what someone at the bottom of their class who didn't get any OCI interviews should reasonably expect after OCIs.

[BlockedQuebecois]

1 hour ago, QueensDenning said:

Do most unsuccessful OCI applicants who made it far (I.e. third day) with a few firms end up securing a 2L summer? Do a lot of corporate boutiques still hire students or should we be focusing on other areas? 

It really depends on the student. I have seen students who were "runners up" to OCI firms go months without securing a job, whiffing on the good post-OCI postings. I have also seen those students lose out to other students who got a handful of OCIs and no in-firms. Each of those firms are hiring based on what criteria they're looking for, not what the OCI firms were looking for, so you're bound to have divergent results. 

Whether "a lot" of boutiques still hire students depends on what you mean by "boutique". If you mean smaller, high end firms focussing on corporate work that compete with bay street firms—think BAX Securities or Allen McDonald Swartz LLP—then they're quite limited. If you just mean mid-market or regional firms like Torkin Manes, Lerners, etc., then yes, there are plenty of jobs that will come up before the summer and during the articling recruit. 

I think it's always a good idea for students who whiffed at OCIs to try to diversify their resume into areas they're interested. Your school likely lets you change your winter courses still, so if you have a sincere interest in another area it won't hurt to take a few courses in crim, family law, etc. Most of the corporate firms won't care about what courses you've taken, so it's a low risk way to hedge your bets. But you're definitely not anywhere close to the "find a job, any job" stage of your hunt. 

[Deadpool]

For anyone interested, I have the articling employer lists for the Toronto recruit for the last couple years I can share with you via email. This may give you a better idea of the opportunities available to you moving forward through the formal recruit. 

If you really want to play it safe, then doing moots and taking courses in civil procedure, insurance, trial advocacy, and labour and employment will be very helpful for this recruit, as the majority of positions are in personal injury, insurance defence, and L&E. There will be a handful of employers in other areas of law, but because these are not as abundant, and each employer is hiring anywhere from 1-5 students, they are more difficult to get if your application doesn't speak to that employer's practice area. 

[spacecadet]

17 hours ago, SlytherinLLP said:

If I remember right there was a wave of firms that clean up good candidates that struck out during the 2L recruit (granted you did not miss their application deadlines).

What's a good way to keep track of these openings? Should we be identifying specific firms and check if they have summer/articling positions listed on their websites, or do they generally post them on viRecruit/Indeed/12Twenty etc.?

[Mr. Deeds]

6 hours ago, spacecadet said:

What's a good way to keep track of these openings? Should we be identifying specific firms and check if they have summer/articling positions listed on their websites, or do they generally post them on viRecruit/Indeed/12Twenty etc.?

I believe your CDO will post a lot of these! 

[Phaedrus]

My tips may be more relevant for securing articles, but I believe they're good rule of thumbs for anyone trying to break into a new field of work. Your "job" boils down to effective networking. 

Everyone talks about it, and CDOs love to make it seem harder than it is. 

@BlockedQuebecois and @Deadpool gave some great advice for how to make your resume and CV standout: Take courses relevant to your practice interest, participate in moots and clinics, take trial practice, and see what pro bono work you can help with. Demonstrating that you have some practical experience and are able to do some real work upon graduation will be an asset. I'd also suggest asking your professors to keep you in mind if they know of anyone looking for a student to do research. 

Networking becomes making a short list of people in your desired practice and geographic area and cold-contacting them. The e-mails are mostly all the same: you're a law student interested in X and you're interested in meeting lawyers that practice X; you have Y connection (school, hometown, also worked for some business in the past) and you'd love to talk about the work they do and how they got there; can I buy you a coffee on any of Z dates? You can find these people by searching firm directories, or through memberships to practice associations. My experience has been that lawyers like to talk about their work, and generally love to impart wisdom on the up and comings. 

The significance is in how you approach the coffee. It isn't a social and, more importantly, it isn't the time to ask for a job (or if they know of anyone who does). It's about leaving a good impression and looking for the next people you need to talk to. Prepare for the meeting well: research the hell out of the person and read through reported or highly-cited cases they worked on. Have general questions about their practice as well as specific questions about specific issues they worked on: "in Diplock v. Ignorance, how did you approach the argument that, in fact, we're all idiots, without offending the trier of fact or suggesting they're one too?"

Again, you don't ask about available positions or openings - we all know why you're there anyway. Instead, ask who else you should be speaking to who practice that work, and if they'll connect you via e-mail. Then, send a follow up e-mail thanking them for them for their time a few hours later. 

These efforts have a cumulative effect over time, trust me. It's nice to be able to circle back and touch base with the great people that offered their time when I was in 1L and 2L.