US Law Schools: Where do I shoot my shot?

[lawyeringaround]

I am applying to US Law Schools for the first time. I am a POC woman and I completed my undergraduate degree from a top Canadian school in finance (I am canadian). My LSAT score is 160 and my GPA is around a 3.3 (78%). I have a very strong personal profile.

I have been looking through school rankings, LSAT ranges, and GPA ranges at schools but would love to hear suggestions on places to shoot my shot. How many schools do people apply to? Where is it actually worth it for me to apply? I don't want to have 1000x rejection emails so trying to get a balance of like insane schools vs i have a shot schools.

Some schools I am thinking about:

DREAM: Georgetown, Boston University, Boston College, Fordham, Berkley, University of Washington, University of California Irvine

OTHER: University of Florida Levin, Arizona State, University of California Davis

[CleanHands]

There are US forums that I think are better tailored for good advice about this and I'm not going to go look up those schools one by one for you but for real, Georgetown has median admit stats of a 3.8 GPA and 167 LSAT...

[Rashabon]

Yeah I don't think you'll get the advice you are looking for/need here. Try the US focused places like TLS: https://www.top-law-schools.com/

I'd wager the majority of experiences people here have with US law admissions are either those that applied and got in to/rejected from T14, or those that were considering bottom feeders. Most of the US lawyers that have come through the forums in the past on both websites were generally Canadian graduates that practiced in the States as well.

Good luck.

[Renerik]

I had looked at US admissions before sitting down, laying out my finances, and thinking about what I wanted to do after law school.

I'll echo that you should visit the TLS forum and https://www.reddit.com/r/lawschooladmissions/. In addition, here are two calculators that estimate scholarships and admissions chances at most US schools.

• https://lsatdemon.com/scholarships You can click on each school's 509 report to see what their GPA and LSAT percentiles were pre-covid. The calculator can be inaccurate because it assumes you applied in September using pre-Covid data.
• https://7sage.com/predictor/ Uses pre-Covid data, your current chances are lower.

You have okay chances at getting into a few of your "other" schools, but you'd be paying sticker price if you got in at all.

[Darth Vader]

You need to do some research and adjust your expectations. Your GPA is low for both your Dream and Other schools, and your LSAT score can barely make up for it. 

https://www.ilrg.com/rankings/law/index/1/asc/Accept 

I am unsure whether you implied this but you being a POC cannot make up for weak stats, unless maybe you are an underrepresented Minority (URM) in the U.S. This is defined as a U.S. citizen who identifies as Black/African American, Hispanic/Latino, or American Indian. 

Going to Ivey, Queen's commerce, or McGill Desautels for undergrad makes no difference on your chances. These schools get applications from ivy league grads with Wall Street experience. 

You should only do this if you are fairly certain you will live and practice in the US after and not return to Canada. If you are paying sticker price as an international student (40-50k USD/year), it is a very risky endeavour. You need to be confident that you will land a Big law job in the States to justify the costs. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Darth Vader

[bigtruss]

Your should be proud of your stats and it's great that you have a strong personal profile to round off your application but every one of the schools you named is going to be a reach for you based on last cycle's numbers. 

A lot of people on this forum are going to be focused on Canada and might not realize how difficult a lot of the schools you listed are to get into.

The University of Florida in your "Other" category has higher medians (3.86 GPA, 167 LSAT) than UBC, Osgoode, and McGill. Georgetown had a 171 LSAT median last cycle which is significantly higher than any Canadian school. Boston University's LSAT median of 169 was higher than U of T's at 168. 

It could be worth applying if you really want to go to these schools given your softs and the fact admissions are unpredictable, but your best bet is improving your LSAT a bit to give you a better shot south of the border.

[Latte_Specter14]

Not sure how helpful this may be after a couple months, but I'll leave this here for others. I went through the same thinking initially and ultimately eliminated US schools for the following reasons:

1. Ranking: I had a similar LSAT (161), and based on the 7sage medians , candidates like us would very likely not get into the top 25, and nearly certain to not break into the T-14 schools. I personally believe going to a top (eg. UofT, UBC) or even 2nd tier (eg. Queen's, Western, Dal) Canadian school would provide a more balanced strategy than attending a T-50, even if you end up practising in the US long-term. Note, even if you are pretty sure you want to practice in the US but no idea where exactly, it may still make sense to hang back in Canada, since a firm in NYC may recognize UofT/Osgoode as more prestigious than a T-50 school located in Arizona. 

2. Flexibility: A major downside is that it may be hard to get 1L and 2L placements in the US by going to a Canadian school as they are not ABA approved (although some UofT students are recruited to NYC). However, you could obtain permanent associate roles by getting called to the Bar in the particular state you want to practice. For example, law school graduates from Canada are automatically eligible to sit for the NY and Mass. state bar and by being called to any provincial bar, you are automatically eligible to sit for some other state bars, including California and Illinois I believe. Many practising Canadian attorneys opt to lateral south after a few years as well, but typically you are limited in the states mentioned until you get a state bar such as NY and can then sit for most other state bars (eg. Florida, Washington). Note that this reasoning applies only to mostly "transactional" or corporate lawyers.

Moreover, say you did go to a US school and ended up wanting to practice in Canada. I have anecdotally heard that the reciprocity agreements for American-trained lawyers are more difficult than going from Canada -> US. On paper, it would likely not be worth it if you went to Harvard Law only to end up practising back in Canada as you would just be paying for prestige with very little utility, let alone making it harder on yourself to fulfill Law Society of Upper Canada/ provincial bar requirements.

3. Cost: Getting a JD in the States is ridiculously expensive. Harvard tuition is about $67k USD (85k CAD) and Ohio State University (Ranked T-40), a public university still costs about $47k USD out-of-state (60k CAD). In Canada, UofT is the most expensive law school, still only coming in at 35k CAD (domestic). Multiply this by 3 years and you can see the money you will save back in Canada. Now, going to Harvard Law for a lot of people may definitely pay off, but would Ohio State University, a school with comparable tuition to T-14, pay off? 

4. Summary: Overall in my view, I do not think it makes sense to consider going to the US to study law, unless you have one or more of the following attributes:

• You have extremely high stats (ie. min LSAT 166+ & min GPA 3.8+) in which case you are seriously targeting T-14 schools with your very strong softs and experience. Additionally, it helps if you are at least 'fairly' set on ending up long-term in the states.
• You are extremely confident you want to practice in a certain geographic location or state. In this case, it may make sense to go to a local T-40 where you would have an easier recruitment.
• Money is not a significant factor at all. In this case, you may as well shoot for the best US school you can get into and then compare any Canadian options by evaluating ranking, location, program, and culture. 

In my case, I did not qualify under any of these: I do not have exceptional stats, I am open to practising somewhere in the US long-term, however am not dying to move to a particular jurisdictional area, and the cost was a decent factor in my decision.

Anyways, I hope this helps with anyone's decision, even if they don't entirely agree with me.

*Note* I am just a law school admit but this reflects my personal conclusions based on extensive research, conversations with Canadian lawyers, and a person I know at a non T-14 school.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Latte_Specter14
Clarified transactional lawyers

[togetic]

I think it's also important (for posterity since I am pretty late) that the ranking of "softs" for U.S. law schools is pretty extraordinary and being president of a pre-law society or even having congressional internships is not considered to be a Tier 1 or Tier 2 soft, which are more achievements like being a Rhodes Scholar, being an Olympic athlete, having fantastic and recognizable achievements in an occupational field.

For "softs" or "personal profile" to make up for below 25th percentile stats, you're going to need Tier 1 or a Tier 2 soft.