Splitter chances? cGPA/B3 2.8x, L2/B2 3.18, LSAT 172

[Bluelike]

Hi, can I ask for some honest opinions on my chances with my stats?

I'm doing my final year of undergrad in ontario. I applied for Ottawa, UofT, Osgoode, Queens, and Western. I applied as Access where I could (mental health issues for a few semesters) but I didn't submit supporting documents so I guess I'm considered General. 

I applied for UBC as Discretionary (index ~90.9) and will apply for UVic soon (index ~906.3), still debating if I should apply as general or discretionary.

I think my ECs are good, I dont know about reference letters but I guess they should be ok (one is from my undergrad prof and one from my manager when I was working engineering intern job for an year). My PS is mainly about my background in engineering and related interests and extracurriculars. 

What do you think of my chances, and if things aren't looking good, what do you recommend me to do for the next cycle? I might write another LSAT in Jan but not super confident I can increase my score by a lot, if at all.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Bluelike

[VitalGiraffe]

I'm in the same scenario as you (although slightly lower for both stats). I'm applying to American schools as well, just to make sure I get in somewhere. I signed up for Jan but I'm not sure it will make a difference if I improve my 170.

[Ben]

In 2017, I was rejected at U of T before I finished my undergrad with the same LSAT as yours, a better CGPA (although not by much - it couldn't have been higher than 3.1 I don't think), and a significantly better L2/B2 (about 3.7). I was accepted the following year after my last year of undergrad raised both by a bit. I didn't apply anywhere else the first cycle and only applied to U of T and Queen's the second (was also accepted at Queen's) so I don't know how helpful that is. I guess this sounds like bad news, so sorry to be its bearer.

EDIT: In case the above wasn’t clear, I was admitted to both U of T and Queen’s the second time around 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Ben

[Bluelike]

2 hours ago, VitalGiraffe said:

I'm in the same scenario as you (although slightly lower for both stats). I'm applying to American schools as well, just to make sure I get in somewhere. I signed up for Jan but I'm not sure it will make a difference if I improve my 170.

Glad to hear there's someone on the same boat. I'm hoping i can improve my lsat to increase my chances this year even by a bit and (possibly) reapply next cycle with slightly better gpa. 

Are you applying for US schools that are known to be not as splitter friendly as well? I'm wondering if it'd be worth the time and money to apply broadly in US or smarter to just focus on those that are known to be splitter-friendly.

[Bluelike]

49 minutes ago, Ben said:

In 2017, I was rejected at U of T before I finished my undergrad with the same LSAT as yours, a better CGPA (although not by much - it couldn't have been higher than 3.1 I don't think), and a significantly better L2/B2 (about 3.7). I was accepted the following year after my last year of undergrad raised both by a bit. I didn't apply anywhere else the first cycle and only applied to U of T and Queen's the second (was also accepted at Queen's) so I don't know how helpful that is. I guess this sounds like bad news, so sorry to be its bearer.

I'm guessing a 172 in 2017 is a lot different than a 172 in 2021, too. This is sad to hear but good to know. It's great you got accepted the next after. 

Can I ask what you did during the year between your undergrad and law school? Do you think your experience for the year helped with your application significantly? 

[VitalGiraffe]

10 minutes ago, Bluelike said:

Glad to hear there's someone on the same boat. I'm hoping i can improve my lsat to increase my chances this year even by a bit and (possibly) reapply next cycle with slightly better gpa. 

Are you applying for US schools that are known to be not as splitter friendly as well? I'm wondering if it'd be worth the time and money to apply broadly in US or smarter to just focus on those that are known to be splitter-friendly.

In short, medium ranked schools. WUSTL is splitter friendly. Fordham is probably a reach, Miami odds are decent. Probably $$$ at FIU.

[Ben]

29 minutes ago, Bluelike said:

I'm guessing a 172 in 2017 is a lot different than a 172 in 2021, too. This is sad to hear but good to know. It's great you got accepted the next after. 

Can I ask what you did during the year between your undergrad and law school? Do you think your experience for the year helped with your application significantly? 

 I did a Master’s after, but I don’t know what bearing that had on being accepted. My first time applying would’ve been November of my fourth and final year of undergrad, and the second would’ve been the next November, i.e. the first year of my MA. I assume the most important difference between the two applications was a strong final year of undergrad. 

[Kobe]

4 hours ago, VitalGiraffe said:

In short, medium ranked schools. WUSTL is splitter friendly. Fordham is probably a reach, Miami odds are decent. Probably $$$ at FIU.

To be clear I have a lower LSAT than both OP and @VitalGiraffe and got $$$+ in the t30. This is with a cgpa by LSAC accounts that is worse than OP. You and VG could probably get into even higher ranked schools with more money. But then there's the consideration of actually going to the US. You'll likely need to spend at least some time working there before coming back (if you ever do). 

In my case it's a nice option to have but now that I am faced with actually leaving Canada I have cold feet. I am going to see said school but I don't think it's a small decision and I am personally leaning to staying if I get accepted here. It's worth applying to but moving to another country isn't as easy as I thought it would be. 

If you can actually see yourself going to school and working there then it's worth a shot OP, otherwise save the money on applications. Your chances are hard to predict but with a 17x score I think it's more likely than not you find acceptance somewhere. 

 

EDIT: For clarity LSAC cut off my grades when I conferred my degree so although I have significant course work after that point my reportable gpa for rankings purposes is low. By OLSAS standards I calculate by real numbers to be 3.1 and L2/B2 of 3.89

Edited December 5, 2021 by Kobe

[Bluelike]

49 minutes ago, Kobe said:

To be clear I have a lower LSAT than both OP and @VitalGiraffe and got $$$+ in the t30. This is with a cgpa by LSAC accounts that is worse than OP. You and VG could probably get into even higher ranked schools with more money. But then there's the consideration of actually going to the US. You'll likely need to spend at least some time working there before coming back (if you ever do). 

In my case it's a nice option to have but now that I am faced with actually leaving Canada I have cold feet. I am going to see said school but I don't think it's a small decision and I am personally leaning to staying if I get accepted here. It's worth applying to but moving to another country isn't as easy as I thought it would be. 

If you can actually see yourself going to school and working there then it's worth a shot OP, otherwise save the money on applications. Your chances are hard to predict but with a 17x score I think it's more likely than not you find acceptance somewhere. 

 

EDIT: For clarity LSAC cut off my grades when I conferred my degree so although I have significant course work after that point my reportable gpa for rankings purposes is low. By OLSAS standards I calculate by real numbers to be 3.1 and L2/B2 of 3.89

Thank you. After seeing VitalGiraffe's and your posts I'm thiniking I should do some research on the US schools. I've never really considered going to the states because I thought my not being a canadian citizen (permanent residency here) may complicate things but it's worth a try, I guess. 

I saw your other posts and seems like you're expecting better cGPA after finishing your final year, have you considered deferring this year and re-applying for canadian schools next cycle?

[Kobe]

21 minutes ago, Bluelike said:

Thank you. After seeing VitalGiraffe's and your posts I'm thiniking I should do some research on the US schools. I've never really considered going to the states because I thought my not being a canadian citizen (permanent residency here) may complicate things but it's worth a try, I guess. 

I saw your other posts and seems like you're expecting better cGPA after finishing your final year, have you considered deferring this year and re-applying for canadian schools next cycle?

Not being a Canadian citizen does change the equation. What makes the US viable as an option is the TN visa and as Canadian PR you do not qualify(unless you are a Mexican citizen). If you can get citizenship before starting it is worth looking into. 

I have thought about this but if I do I will likely retake for a 17x. I would like to get started sooner than later though but if holding off ends up making the most sense I will. 

[VitalGiraffe]

FWIW I feel the same way as @Kobe. I am applying to many American schools, but I will take any of my Canadian schools over the American ones. Would gladly go to an American school if no Canadian acceptances and a decent scholarship though.

Edited December 5, 2021 by VitalGiraffe

[NowOrNever]

On 12/3/2021 at 4:32 PM, Bluelike said:

Hi, can I ask for some honest opinions on my chances with my stats?

I'm doing my final year of undergrad in ontario. I applied for Ottawa, UofT, Osgoode, Queens, and Western. I applied as Access where I could (mental health issues for a few semesters) but I didn't submit supporting documents so I guess I'm considered General. 

I applied for UBC as Discretionary (index ~90.9) and will apply for UVic soon (index ~906.3), still debating if I should apply as general or discretionary.

I think my ECs are good, I dont know about reference letters but I guess they should be ok (one is from my undergrad prof and one from my manager when I was working engineering intern job for an year). My PS is mainly about my background in engineering and related interests and extracurriculars. 

What do you think of my chances, and if things aren't looking good, what do you recommend me to do for the next cycle? I might write another LSAT in Jan but not super confident I can increase my score by a lot, if at all.

Suggest you apply to Manitoba, TRU and UNB.

[Bluelike]

1 hour ago, NowOrNever said:

Suggest you apply to Manitoba, TRU and UNB.

Honestly I haven't considered Manitoba and UNB because I don't see myself living in MB or NB (went to high school in MB, didn't like it) but I should look at TRU. Thank you!

[bluebean]

If you don't want to go to the states or outside of Ontario, your best bet is to do 2 years of an undergrad and boost your L2. It's a time/money commitment but it'll probably still be cheaper than going to a US law school. A 3.6 or higher will probably get you into most if not all Ontario law schools with your LSAT. 

If you want to start law school ASAP, the other schools people have mentioned above are great options. You could always transfer after a year or simply apply for work in the province of your choice after graduating. While people say to apply where you want to work, I haven't heard of people struggling to find work in a different province and law schools have career management services in place to help you do just that. 

[nestlepurelife]

Finished UG with similar CGPA, identical LSAT and slightly higher B2. Applied to same schools as yourself and was rejected everywhere except for Windsor dual program. I applied as general to all schools though.

[Bluelike]

29 minutes ago, samii said:

If you don't want to go to the states or outside of Ontario, your best bet is to do 2 years of an undergrad and boost your L2. It's a time/money commitment but it'll probably still be cheaper than going to a US law school. A 3.6 or higher will probably get you into most if not all Ontario law schools with your LSAT. 

 

21 minutes ago, nestlepurelife said:

Finished UG with similar CGPA, identical LSAT and slightly higher B2. Applied to same schools as yourself and was rejected everywhere except for Windsor dual program. I applied as general to all schools though.

Thank you! Sounds like I really need higher L2/B2 to be considered competitive. I might work for an year and try again after finishing my undergrad, I'm expecting to have ~3.7 L2/B2 and ~3.4 B3 after my final year but not much improvement for my cGPA (~3.0 at best). 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Bluelike

[bluebean]

23 minutes ago, Bluelike said:

I'm expecting to have ~3.7 L2/B2 and ~3.4 B3 after my final year but not much improvement for my cGPA (~3.0 at best). 

If you can get a 3.7 L2/B2 you should be fine. You'll get into a few of the listed schools even with a lower cGPA.

[LordBONSAI]

UofT explicitly states they have put more weight on GPA than on LSAT since the 2015-16 cycle: https://www.law.utoronto.ca/jd-admissions-policies. And in the recent cycles, I have observed their proclivity to admit splitters with a superior GPA and a less competitive LSAT score, not vice versa. According to the available data, it is really rare to see successful applicants with sub-3.0 cGPA or B3, even when coupled with a 170+ LSAT. That said, I do think you've a chance given that UofT's admissions are honestly holistic, and you've got compelling reasons for underperforming in undergrad. 

You may want to look at data points from the old forum and LSData for reference. Good luck.

Edited December 6, 2021 by LordBONSAI