Ryerson vs. Queen's

[Lawhopeful420]

I recently got accepted into Ryerson and I think I have a strong chance at Queen's since it's also an L2 school. If I get accepted into both, which law school should I go to? For context I live in the GTA but I would move out and rent regardless. I provisionally accepted but I'm wondering if Ryerson's lack of alumni and support system will be a problem.

[Darth Vader]

1 hour ago, Lawhopeful420 said:

I recently got accepted into Ryerson and I think I have a strong chance at Queen's since it's also an L2 school. If I get accepted into both, which law school should I go to? For context I live in the GTA but I would move out and rent regardless. I provisionally accepted but I'm wondering if Ryerson's lack of alumni and support system will be a problem.

Is this a troll post? How does Ryerson stack up against Queen's? 

[Federale]

Queens is a B2 school not a L20 school

[Louis St. Laurent]

If you're going to move out and rent a place anyways, you would probably save a bunch of money going to Queen's.

It's cheaper to live in Kingston than it is to live in the GTA, and Queen's tuition is about $3000 a year cheaper than Ryerson's. 

If it was me I would save money and go to the more established school. 

[easttowest]

Ryerson has been doing decently well in the structured recruits (if that’s your bag), but I’d go to Queens if those were my options. Louis St. Laurent nails it above.

Edited December 17, 2021 by easttowest

[coffeelover]

19 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

Because you have to spend 3 years in Kingston and interacting with Queen's students.

I don't find those are adequate reasons on why you find Queen's law school a last resort school. What about the academic side of it? how is the school in comparison to Western or Ryerson? I understand the city is small but I mean isn't the law school one of the best law schools in Ontario?  What is so wrong with Queen's students? I am genuinely curious as I have received acceptance from Queen's and would like to know the good/bad of the school before firmly accepting. 

[WiseGhost]

@coffeelover I admittedly don't have experience with law at Queens but from my experience with Queens students, they're bratty and do a lot of a coke. Kingston is a beautiful city -- however, their public transit and urban planning is all sorts of fucked up. 

[Kimura]

30 minutes ago, villiuski said:

@coffeelover I admittedly don't have experience with law at Queens but from my experience with Queens students, they're bratty and do a lot of a coke. Kingston is a beautiful city -- however, their public transit and urban planning is all sorts of fucked up. 

You'll find people doing blow at any law school you go to.

[bluebean]

As a 1L at Queen's, the law students are some of the nicest people I've met. Maybe my cohort is different from others (I doubt it because my mentor and their friends are wonderful too, all the upper years in my clubs are lovely). I heavily disagree with the posters who say otherwise (even jokingly). The support system and community is amazing and always there for you. I haven't had a bad experience yet.

Kingston is like Dr jekyl/Mr hyde though. Cute small town vibes on one end of the street, may get robbed on the other end. But I guess that's the beauty of it. 

[QMT20]

5 minutes ago, samii said:

As a 1L at Queen's, the law students are some of the nicest people I've met. Maybe my cohort is different from others (I doubt it because my mentor and their friends are wonderful too, all the upper years in my clubs are lovely). I heavily disagree with the posters who say otherwise (even jokingly). The support system and community is amazing and always there for you. I haven't had a bad experience yet.

Kingston is like Dr jekyl/Mr hyde though. Cute small town vibes on one end of the street, may get robbed on the other end. But I guess that's the beauty of it. 

You have clearly not met the associate dean academic. I think many of the students my year and the year below me, who experienced how they dealt with the COVID transition, doing online exams from home for the first time, course registrations, and the mixed signals on return to campus would have something to say about bad experiences. 

However, overall my experience at Queen's was very positive and I'd urge the OP to choose Queen's over Ryerson. I haven't attended Ryerson so I can't say what it's like to be a student there. However, on the level of institutional support/alumni networks I do think Ryerson is still lacking despite having support from many of the firms on Bay. For example, the practitioners I know who are teaching at Ryerson are primarily associates, whereas Queen's has the former managing partner of Osler's Montreal office holding a chair in business law, and other partners from Bay street firms travelling up to Kingston to teach every week. Ryerson gets donations but a lot of the large endowments that provide for specific opportunities at the established law schools come from the estates of retired alumni which takes time for the school to build up. For one of the moots I did, we had external coaching from former SCC clerks who did the moot when they were in law school and from an alumnus who's now an appellate court judge. Those are opportunities that were available at Queen's (and which I would presume are available at other established law schools) because of the alumni network and I'd question whether Ryerson has that yet. 

I also found most of my cohort at Queen's not to be the toxic keener types. That was nice because if I was interested in a moot or a journal for the subject matter, I felt like I was mostly competing with other people who were interested for the same reasons, rather than a bunch of people who wanted the line on their resume. Not having to compete with half your year for every opportunity is a huge advantage because it makes it a lot easier for you to have the law school experience you want. 

In my case, I got to do both the moots I wanted, I got to run an academic journal while I was in law school, and I got to do research for professors who reached out to me to work with them. I probably would have lost at least a few of those opportunities if half my year were vying for all of them. 

I'm not saying everyone you meet at Ryerson will be toxic or that you'll have to compete for every position there.  Someone else would have to speak to their experience at the school. They have the advantage of being in Toronto and they do have support from many of the large firms (though, so do all of the other law schools in Ontario except maybe Lakehead). 

This was just my experience at Queen's plus why I think the difference between having an alumni network and not having one is a strong reason to pick Queen's over Ryerson, for now. 

[bluebean]

@QMT20 I was specifically referring to the law students, not faculty, as there was a comment about students being bratty and doing a lot of coke. That isn't my experience at all.

Idk about the dean as I haven't had many interactions with them, I trust your experience on that. With covid, I wouldn't think it's fair to denigrate Queen's specifically, especially on a school comparison post. Most unis are being flaky about it. 

Otherwise, I can vouch for all the profs in my section and the accommodations coordinator being incredibly understanding and helpful. Everyone's experience is likely different but I wouldn't go far as to say the students or faculty at Queen's are a downside to the law program, considering it'll be a mixed bag wherever you choose to go.

[BlushAndTheBar]

3 hours ago, QMT20 said:

You have clearly not met the associate dean academic. I think many of the students my year and the year below me, who experienced how they dealt with the COVID transition, doing online exams from home for the first time, course registrations, and the mixed signals on return to campus would have something to say about bad experiences. 

However, overall my experience at Queen's was very positive and I'd urge the OP to choose Queen's over Ryerson. I haven't attended Ryerson so I can't say what it's like to be a student there. However, on the level of institutional support/alumni networks I do think Ryerson is still lacking despite having support from many of the firms on Bay. For example, the practitioners I know who are teaching at Ryerson are primarily associates, whereas Queen's has the former managing partner of Osler's Montreal office holding a chair in business law, and other partners from Bay street firms travelling up to Kingston to teach every week. Ryerson gets donations but a lot of the large endowments that provide for specific opportunities at the established law schools come from the estates of retired alumni which takes time for the school to build up. For one of the moots I did, we had external coaching from former SCC clerks who did the moot when they were in law school and from an alumnus who's now an appellate court judge. Those are opportunities that were available at Queen's (and which I would presume are available at other established law schools) because of the alumni network and I'd question whether Ryerson has that yet. 

I also found most of my cohort at Queen's not to be the toxic keener types. That was nice because if I was interested in a moot or a journal for the subject matter, I felt like I was mostly competing with other people who were interested for the same reasons, rather than a bunch of people who wanted the line on their resume. Not having to compete with half your year for every opportunity is a huge advantage because it makes it a lot easier for you to have the law school experience you want. 

In my case, I got to do both the moots I wanted, I got to run an academic journal while I was in law school, and I got to do research for professors who reached out to me to work with them. I probably would have lost at least a few of those opportunities if half my year were vying for all of them. 

I'm not saying everyone you meet at Ryerson will be toxic or that you'll have to compete for every position there.  Someone else would have to speak to their experience at the school. They have the advantage of being in Toronto and they do have support from many of the large firms (though, so do all of the other law schools in Ontario except maybe Lakehead). 

This was just my experience at Queen's plus why I think the difference between having an alumni network and not having one is a strong reason to pick Queen's over Ryerson, for now. 

This. I echo everything this poster has said but it's especially true of what they said about the administration. There are a few individuals I scratch my head about quite often. I also wouldn't be surprised if Ryerson outgrows Queen's within the next few years. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by BlushAndTheBar
correction

[Ryn]

There were like four useful posts in what was a 2 page thread. Let’s try and keep the advice here helpful and not let it devolve into snark and inside jokes that no one outside of a few people on this board will understand or find funny. 

I’ve hidden all the irrelevant posts. 

[Lawhopeful420]

On 12/17/2021 at 1:11 AM, Darth Vader said:

Is this a troll post? How does Ryerson stack up against Queen's? 

Definitely not and sorry if it comes off that way. I guess I'm wondering if Ryerson has any advantage being in the heart of downtown closer to most firms than Queen's.

Also, is their IPC program credible or is articling still preferred in the field? Does their coding crash course give me any practical advantage over other law students or would firms not even consider it?

If anyone has more data on how Ryerson did these past years for placements I'd really appreciate it!

[Rashabon]

I expect articling will still be the norm for most firms. I don't think the coding crash course gives you much of an advantage if you're not practicing on your own or in a small environment, but knowing coding techniques is not entirely useless if you're a corporate lawyer that's going to have to be familiar with Excel down the road.

Location will be an advantage in the long run but for now it's too early to tell.

Here's the data on hiring. Ryerson's first 2L recruit was quite good.

http://ultravires.ca/2021/11/toronto-summer-2022-2l-recruit-numbers/

Here's the 1L recruitment numbers. Ryerson did better than Queen's, although it's 4 versus 3.

http://ultravires.ca/2021/09/toronto-summer-2021-1l-recruitment-results/

[Electricity]

@Lawhopeful420 I don’t know very much about Ryerson, but I’m a student at Queen’s and would be happy to PM if you’ve got any specific questions. It’s a very community-oriented (read: fun) school, and most of our 2024 class is already quite close. An added benefit is that it tends to repel wet blankets like @Rashabon. 

I don’t think you can go wrong either way though, and you definitely shouldn’t base your decision on the alumni network. Best of luck in your decision, and feel free to reach out.

[Kimura]

33 minutes ago, Electricity said:

@Lawhopeful420 I don’t know very much about Ryerson, but I’m a student at Queen’s and would be happy to PM if you’ve got any specific questions. It’s a very community-oriented (read: fun) school, and most of our 2024 class is already quite close. An added benefit is that it tends to repel wet blankets like @Rashabon. 

I don’t think you can go wrong either way though, and you definitely shouldn’t base your decision on the alumni network. Best of luck in your decision, and feel free to reach out.

To be fair, while OP shouldn't solely base their decision on a school's alumni network, OP shouldn't be basing their decision on whether the school is "fun" or community-oriented either. Every school will have a sense of community. Whether or not a class gets "close" is more dependent on the personalities of a particular cohort as opposed to the school itself. I remember some cohorts in first year being completely divided for one reason or another, whereas other cohorts were tight-knit.

I believe the most important factors are quality of education and what you are looking for out of your education. What are you interested in OP? Queens has a pretty interesting prison law clinic, and some pretty reputable criminal law professors. Are you interested in criminal law? If so, maybe Queens is for you. I know one of the reasons I chose my school is because of the intensives and breadth of courses the school offered. Take a look at the course offerings and maybe pay a visit to the school (if you get the chance).

Also, alumni network is an important element because it goes hand in hand with the school's reputation. 

 

[Electricity]

22 minutes ago, Kimura said:

To be fair, while OP shouldn't solely base their decision on a school's alumni network, OP shouldn't be basing their decision on whether the school is "fun" or community-oriented either.

I wasn’t implying OP should attend Queen’s primarily because of its community. I was merely trying to bat away some of the bizarre and since-deleted posts about its students. I was also careful to mention that OP would be well-served attending either school.