Queens vs UBC

[ALawyer]

These are my top two schools and I am having a hard time deciding between the them.

I am looking into pursuing criminal law, either as a criminal defence lawyer or an appeal lawyer. Both schools seem to have decent opportunities in this area -  such as lsap, innocence project, and prison law clinic - so this factor was not going to be a huge part of my decision making process. Additionally, I have family and friends in both provinces and can hopefully receive enough financial aid and scholarships to make the two schools of similar cost. 

Mostly I am looking for advice regarding the student life and atmosphere (but will of course appreciate advice on anything I mentioned above or havent said!). I went to UofT for my undergrad and did not have the best experiences, so I am really trying to avoid a competitive toxic atmosphere and a student body that is reluctant to help their fellow students. I have heard positive things about Queens in this regard but havent been able to find someone to give me info on UBC. Hoping for the best that just because UBC is a top school it doesn't automatically mean there is a toxic work and student environment.

Edited January 19, 2022 by ALawyer

[rinse-repeat]

I don't know much about Allard, but I heard about the spreadsheet incident there last year. Maybe that speaks to the environment somewhat.

[lawyer]

It's generally considered a good idea to pick the school located in the area you wish to work in one day - would you prefer to spend your future in British Columbia or Ontario?

19 minutes ago, ALawyer said:

just because UBC is a top school it doesn't automatically mean there is a toxic work and student environment.

I can't comment on whether or not Queens is toxic, but there was an incident at Allard last year where someone in the 1L class tried to keep a spreadsheet tracking every incident in which their peers allegedly broke public health orders. They planned to maintain this spreadsheet until the 2L recruit, then share it with employers in order to take out their perceived competition. You can decide for yourself whether that classifies as toxic, lol

There was another incident a few years back (also involving an Excel spreadsheet, interestingly) where a handful of 2Ls decided to maintain a database of which people got offers from which firms during the recruit. Apparently, Allard students really have a thing for spreadsheets.

EDIT: looks like @rinse-repeat took the words right out of my mouth

Edited January 19, 2022 by lawyer

[Deadpool]

29 minutes ago, lawyer said:

It's generally considered a good idea to pick the school located in the area you wish to work in one day - would you prefer to spend your future in British Columbia or Ontario?

I can't comment on whether or not Queens is toxic, but there was an incident at Allard last year where someone in the 1L class tried to keep a spreadsheet tracking every incident in which their peers allegedly broke public health orders. They planned to maintain this spreadsheet until the 2L recruit, then share it with employers in order to take out their perceived competition. You can decide for yourself whether that classifies as toxic, lol

There was another incident a few years back (also involving an Excel spreadsheet, interestingly) where a handful of 2Ls decided to maintain a database of which people got offers from which firms during the recruit. Apparently, Allard students really have a thing for spreadsheets.

EDIT: looks like @rinse-repeat took the words right out of my mouth

I would not base an opinion on a school on incidents like these. Osgoode had more than once incident where the posters of Black historical figures were vandalized. There was also another incident where a student was forced to leave after two women accused them of sexual assault. Queen's law has had incidents with Muslim and Black students who said they faced racism and discrimination from their peers and the faculty. 

https://www.canadianlawyermag.com/news/general/black-law-students-speak-out-after-vandalism-of-posters-at-osgoode/274898 

All that is to say, there are unfortunate incidents like these at every law school, because there are going to be — for lack of a better word — idiots, that attend these schools who lack in basic social graces, common sense, maturity, and emotional intelligence. Law school stress can also make people do things they might not think to do otherwise. 

Everyone that I have met from UBC are people I would want to be friends with. I would not let the idiots that go there deter you from the school. No matter where you go, there will be good people to be found and you can choose to associate with them over the negative types. If you are a kind person and spread positivity, you will attract kindness and positivity in return. This is how I chose to interest with people in law school, and I found that even the people who initiatially gave me negative vibes warmed up to me and tried to understand me better despite our differences. Law school is not a whole lot different from what you will face in the legal profession. Take it as a learning experience and just put your best foot forward and be open to meeting new people and having new experiences — both the good and the bad. 

[Byzantine]

I'm a 1L at UBC and I've been very happy with the school so far. You're put in a small group of 50 students and take almost all your 1L classes with them. My classmates are very nice and I haven't noticed any sort of competitive toxic atmosphere or anything like that. There's been quite a few events hosted to get to know each other. People are willing to help each other out with concepts. Professors have been great and good at teaching. Bursaries are very generous (you can PM me for details). 

In terms of LSLAP I've been apart of it and it's been one of the best parts of my education so far. It's super self directed which can be overwhelming, but I'm learning a ton. You can basically pick up as much work as you want as you get new clients on a bi-weekly basis and people attempt to transfer away their files when they get too busy with school. They also offer paid positions in the summer; it's a lottery system where the more work you've done the higher chance you have of being selected (but they have a number of guaranteed positions for those who've done the most work). Been to court twice already and will definitely be heading back a couple more times this semester. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Byzantine

[Psychometronic]

I graduated from Allard recently and my experience has been generally positive. I met my closest law school friends early in 1L through my small group and enjoyed a rich variety of opportunities. I did not have difficulty finding a study group during finals season and I found that people were very generous with sharing knowledge, resources, and helping each other out. I agree with those who called out the spreadsheet incidents, however, most Allard students either rolled their eyes or denounced this behaviour. In my view, you will find your people if you're reasonably likable.

Based on my limited 2nd hand knowledge of other law schools, no school stands out as more "toxic" than others. I'm inclined to believe that law students are a heterogeneous bunch and each school has its drama. Some of my peers had less of a positive experience than me so YMMV.

In your shoes, I would also consider the tuition difference between the two schools, especially if you're serious about going into criminal law.

[syh-0120]

I'm a 1L in Allard. I heard about the incident. I think it really depends on the cohort - mines been really helpful and collegial so far. A good majority of people in Allard are highly motivated people but from my interactions with them it didn't translate to toxic competitiveness. They were more friendly than I expected.

[ALawyer]

19 hours ago, ALawyer said:

These are my top two schools and I am having a hard time deciding between the them.

 

I am also unsure about which province I want to work in (which adds into my dilemma of choosing a school), so any additional advice individuals have on moving provinces after graduating would be appreciated to hopefully ease my worries of feeling stuck somewhere after choosing a school.

[CleanHands]

I'm a UBC grad, I enjoyed my time there, and I made some very good friends there.

Now, I should issue the disclaimer that people are great about sharing CANs, taking notes for each other when someone is unable to attend class, etc. And I really liked my small group (50 students you take 1L together with).

However, the broader student culture there does suck in many respects.

• There was the COVID spreadsheet (a group of students collecting "evidence" of students disobeying COVID regulations, with the intent of sending it to legal employers).
• Before that there was apparently the OCI spreadsheet (a list of who got OCI jobs where, so people knew who was worth their time and who should be disregarded).
• The Great Grading Debate at the start of COVID was insufferable and toxic. It got heated and people crossed the line, publicly, several times. For law students at a school with the second highest admission standards in the country (not counting McGill just because the LSAT isn't required so it can't be compared as directly, calm down @PzabbytheLawyer 😛), the inability of some people to avoid devolving into hysterics in an argument was truly astounding.
• Students trying to "cancel" Janine Benedet (a fantastic law professor and person, who was a JD gold medalist and could have done anything she wanted and chose to dedicate her career to advocating for women), labelling her a "transphobe" or a "TERF" or whatever for working with Vancouver Rape Relief, and "anti-sex worker" for arguing for a Nordic model rather than full decriminalization of all aspects of prostitution (as if these issues aren't even subject to debate). Straight up defamation was published in The Ubyssey with them quoting anonymous students alleging she made certain statements, which the Ubyssey later retracted because they were "unable to verify" them.
• Particularly pertinent to the last two points: a few very obnoxious and very vocal students basically dominate any sort of political/social/cultural discussion on campus (or at least they did...some of the worst offenders in my time there will be graduating shortly), try to conscript the entire class into their crusades, and act like anyone who doesn't agree with them about absolutely everything is Literally Hitler. Although they do have people who agree with them there are also a very significant amount of people who can't stand them, but nobody calls them out because it's simply not worth the effort when these lunatics will devote all of their energy to destroying people over it under the guise of righteousness. I have no idea what the hell is wrong with these people or who told them they were so special for their whole lives leading up to this point, but it was behaviour I can't imagine being tolerated in almost any other environment.
• Huge cliquishness with elected positions and titles like the ALSS positions and student awards. It's the same handful of people voting each other into everything they can. If you have any interest in any of that crap (fortunately I did not) it's a prerequisite to be friends with the right people. It's high school level stuff.
• The hypocrisy of the overwhelming corporate focus of the school and most students, combined with the overwhelming virtue-signaling hashtag activism of the student body, really irritated me by the end of my time there.

I'm sure I could think of more examples of unpleasantness if I bothered to stretch my brain, but I'll leave it at that. I did mostly enjoy my time at UBC, and I liked most of the people I met there. But it's nice being out of that bubble and now interacting with people with a greater diversity of viewpoints, who know how to disagree with people without despising them, and who are more concerned with doing good than being publicly perceived to be doing good.

Edited January 21, 2022 by CleanHands

[PzabbytheLawyer]

Someone rang?

Something something the lsat discriminates against Francos by not administering it in French something something.

On est tous et toutes plus intelligentes que vous.

@CleanHands 🙂

 

 

[Firecracker]

Current 1L at Allard. Haven't posted in a while but here to agree with the other Allard 1Ls in this thread lol. I too was worried because of the notorious spreadsheet incident last year and peoples' comments about Allard's student culture, but I'm personally very glad that I didn't let that scare me off from going because I've had the complete opposite experience to what I read online. I think it's definitely cohort-dependent. My year has been incredibly friendly and collegial from the start - can't think of a single person I don't like, honestly.

To bring this back to the thread: I would caution you against using any sort of indicators you hear online about "student culture" and "attitudes" of certain schools as a real factor in your decision about where to go. There is such a wide variety of different people attending each school each year such that it's a generalization you just can't know.

Good luck with your decision!