What to choose? Osgoode vs. Queens????

[ace24]

Never thought I'd be in this position, but here I am, so I'm looking for some advice in choosing which school to attend.  Although I am leaning towards Osgoode for a variety of reasons I will list, Queens was my original dream school and I'm having a hard time letting go of it.  To quickly quantify factors in my decision I put together a short pros and cons list as follows: 

Osgoode 

pros-  better networking opportunities in Toronto, strong placements in corporate law, close to family, reputation (I know this doesn't matter but it does hold some weight in my decision), cheaper due to not paying rent, food, and utilities (live an hour away). 

Cons- I hate commuting and would like to be more integrated into the student body, on top of this commuting in the winter could be especially bad and I wonder if this commute would negatively impact my performance 

Queens

pros- smaller more tight knit community (from what I've heard), on par with Osgoode in many respects, would live there making the stress of commuting non-existent, get to move out (albeit at a significant expense lol)  

cons- MONEY- would likely cost me around 10-15k more per year to go to queens, potentially more difficult to make Toronto connections, difficulty in getting a good apartment/ bad roommates 

 

At the end of the day I want to enjoy my law school experience while minimizing unnecessary debt.  Furthermore, I do expect to pursue big law fresh out of law school and maybe transition later on in my career to something else if need be.  Based on this it seems as though Osgoode is the obvious choice, but I was wondering if anyone who has had to make this choice could chime in, or anyone from either of these schools could comment on their experiences to help me figure this out.  

 

Thanks in advance!

[BlockedQuebecois]

Osgoode for less money than Queens is a complete no brainer, in my opinion.

Osgoode keeps more doors open and has a great community even if York itself is a commuter school. I don't think Queen's community is any more tight knit than Osgoode's—it truthfully seems like all law schools have relatively tight knit groups. 

Commuting is a pain, but for $30,000 to $45,000 in savings, I think it's worth it. 

[ace24]

7 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Osgoode for less money than Queens is a complete no brainer, in my opinion.

Osgoode keeps more doors open and has a great community even if York itself is a commuter school. I don't think Queen's community is any more tight knit than Osgoode's—it truthfully seems like all law schools have relatively tight knit groups. 

Commuting is a pain, but for $30,000 to $45,000 in savings, I think it's worth it. 

I appreciate the response, truthfully the only thing holding me back is how much I enjoyed the queens campus as my undergrad campus was pretty awful.  Regardless for 30-45k extra I don't think its worth it either.  

[Darth Vader]

1 hour ago, ace24 said:

Based on this it seems as though Osgoode is the obvious choice, but I was wondering if anyone who has had to make this choice could chime in, or anyone from either of these schools could comment on their experiences to help me figure this out.  

Osgoode is not necessarily the obvious choice, as Queen's places decently well in Big law and grades are easier to get there than Osgoode as well.

Despite what anyone tells you, Queen's is not on par with Osgoode. Queen's is more on par with Western. Both Queen's and Western have similar career outcomes for its students and a largely young, homogenous student body. The students that I see who don't land corporate jobs, largely end up working in small and medium-sized firms and many in small towns and cities. In comparison, a significant amount of Osgoode students land Big law jobs and a good chunk land government, public interest, and top-tier boutiques. Most graduates go on to work the GTA — which is the most competitive market to find a job in in the country. Even the admissions requirements for Queen's is much less competitive than Osgoode. 

For your specific goals of wanting to work in Big law, Queen's does the job just fine. If you wanted to do anything else though, I'd go to Osgoode over Queen's because it has a better reputation, more opportunities, and is located in Toronto. If you can get into Queen's JD/MBA, you can also land a Big law job easily. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

21 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

Osgoode is not necessarily the obvious choice, as Queen's places decently well in Big law and grades are easier to get there than Osgoode as well.

Despite what anyone tells you, Queen's is not on par with Osgoode. Queen's is more on par with Western. Both Queen's and Western have similar career outcomes for its students and a largely young, homogenous student body. The students that I see who don't land corporate jobs, largely end up working in small and medium-sized firms and many in small towns and cities. In comparison, a significant amount of Osgoode students land Big law jobs and a good chunk land government, public interest, and top-tier boutiques. Most graduates go on to work the GTA — which is the most competitive market to find a job in in the country. Even the admissions requirements for Queen's is much less competitive than Osgoode. 

For your specific goals of wanting to work in Big law, Queen's does the job just fine. If you wanted to do anything else though, I'd go to Osgoode over Queen's because it has a better reputation, more opportunities, and is located in Toronto. If you can get into Queen's JD/MBA, you can also land a Big law job easily. 

Even if I thought it was right to say it's easier to get a Bay Street job from Queens than Osgoode, I would argue $30,000 – $45,000 is worth whatever marginal increase in difficulty one would face trying to get that type of job from Osgoode. 

But for the record, I think the proposition that it is harder to get a Bay Street job from Osgoode than it is from Queens is wrong. If anything I think it's easier from Osgoode, but if not easier it is, at worst, equal.

[ace24]

20 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

Osgoode is not necessarily the obvious choice, as Queen's places decently well in Big law and grades are easier to get there than Osgoode as well.

Although this was something I had considered, I wonder if you could speak to  the level of grade discrepancy between candidates would be significant- I.e. an A- at Queens vs a B or B+ from Osgoode, and their associated levels of desirability from employers.  I have heard that all else being equal similar grades between these schools have similar standing, but obviously have no experience in this matter.  
 

3 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Even if I thought it was right to say it's easier to get a Bay Street job from Queens than Osgoode, I would argue $30,000 – $45,000 is worth whatever marginal increase in difficulty one would face trying to get that type of job from Osgoode. 

Furthermore, I wonder if this potential to marginally outperform my cohort is worth the extra 30-45k as mentioned above? 
 

Again thanks for your responses, it really helps having some first hand experience in making this decision.  

[Darth Vader]

5 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Even if I thought it was right to say it's easier to get a Bay Street job from Queens than Osgoode, I would argue $30,000 – $45,000 is worth whatever marginal increase in difficulty one would face trying to get that type of job from Osgoode. 

But for the record, I think the proposition that it is harder to get a Bay Street job from Osgoode than it is from Queens is wrong. If anything I think it's easier from Osgoode, but if not easier it is, at worst, equal.

I didn't say it is harder to do from Osgoode; they are about equal. Osgoode has performed better recently in OCIs but it was close to Western and Queen's in the past.

I don't know if OP really wants to spend 2 hours commuting everyday for law school, especially in their first year. 

[Fruitdealer]

1 minute ago, ace24 said:

Although this was something I had considered, I wonder if you could speak to  the level of grade discrepancy between candidates would be significant- I.e. an A- at Queens vs a B or B+ from Osgoode, and their associated levels of desirability from employers.  I have heard that all else being equal similar grades between these schools have similar standing, but obviously have no experience in this matter.  
 

Furthermore, I wonder if this potential to marginally outperform my cohort is worth the extra 30-45k as mentioned above? 
 

Again thanks for your responses, it really helps having some first hand experience in making this decision.  

See 2L OCI stats from Ultra Vires - https://ultravires.ca/2021/11/toronto-summer-2022-2l-recruit-numbers/. They are not complete, so take from it what you will.

Osgoode looks to have performed better than normal this year but the numbers in general look to be pretty similar overall with Osgoode performing better than Queens for the past several years as well. If commute is a deal breaker, depending on what it costs to rent a place near Osgoode, you could still do that and be about break-even on cost.

[Darth Vader]

1 minute ago, ace24 said:

Although this was something I had considered, I wonder if you could speak to  the level of grade discrepancy between candidates would be significant- I.e. an A- at Queens vs a B or B+ from Osgoode, and their associated levels of desirability from employers.  I have heard that all else being equal similar grades between these schools have similar standing, but obviously have no experience in this matter.  
 

Furthermore, I wonder if this potential to marginally outperform my cohort is worth the extra 30-45k as mentioned above? 
 

Again thanks for your responses, it really helps having some first hand experience in making this decision.  

The curve at Queen's is higher but employers would account for this anyways when they compare Queen's students transcripts. No two employers are alike so I can't comment on how they would compare these grades. Certainly, an A- grade is much better than a B grade which is on the curve at Osgoode. If you are a B student then it means you're average. 

You will have lots of 8:30am classes in your first year at Osgoode. You will be missing out on lots of extracurriculars and social activities if you have to commute 2 hours everyday. At least for first year, you should live in residence or off-campus closer to the school. 

[ace24]

2 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

I don't know if OP really wants to spend 2 hours commuting everyday for law school, especially in their first year. 

This is my main concern with attending Osgoode in the fall.  However I believe Osgoode offers more opportunity, and since I’m not in law school yet I wouldn’t be surprised if my career ambitions change. Which is why I’m leaning that way.  
 

 

2 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

You will have lots of 8:30am classes in your first year at Osgoode. You will be missing out on lots of extracurriculars and social activities if you have to commute 2 hours everyday. At least for first year, you should live in residence or off-campus closer to the school. 

That’s a fair point, moving closer to school for a year would still save me somewhere in the ballpark of 20k while allowing me the opportunity to network and make better connections.  

[ace24]

17 minutes ago, Fruitdealer said:

See 2L OCI stats from Ultra Vires - https://ultravires.ca/2021/11/toronto-summer-2022-2l-recruit-numbers/. They are not complete, so take from it what you will.

Osgoode looks to have performed better than normal this year but the numbers in general look to be pretty similar overall with Osgoode performing better than Queens for the past several years as well. If commute is a deal breaker, depending on what it costs to rent a place near Osgoode, you could still do that and be about break-even on cost.

Looks like I have to decide if the added competition yet increase in opportunity while saving money is a worthwhile proposition.  
 

Another factor I’m curious about is the transition from undergrad to law school.  I went to a smaller relatively new university, and while many of my professors were more than qualified and capable to teach at any university, I wonder if the overall lack of competition may have inflated my performance.  On the contrary my lsat performance (167) was very good imo so I do think I will be successful despite a potentially difficult adjustment period, leaving me to wonder what school I may be more successful at.  Any advice on this would also be very helpful. 

[Fruitdealer]

36 minutes ago, ace24 said:

Looks like I have to decide if the added competition yet increase in opportunity while saving money is a worthwhile proposition.  
 

Another factor I’m curious about is the transition from undergrad to law school.  I went to a smaller relatively new university, and while many of my professors were more than qualified and capable to teach at any university, I wonder if the overall lack of competition may have inflated my performance.  On the contrary my lsat performance (167) was very good imo so I do think I will be successful despite a potentially difficult adjustment period, leaving me to wonder what school I may be more successful at.  Any advice on this would also be very helpful. 

Just a point on that, if the stats there are to be trusted, then Osgoode has about 50% more of their class getting hired through the 2L OCI recruit than Queens (39% vs 25%), so unless you think you are going to be a much stronger student relative to the rest of your class, Osgoode is probably going to give you better odds. Take into account as well that not everyone at each school actually wants to get into an OCI firm, so 39% at Osgoode means that if you're pretty much right on the median or slightly above, then you have a good shot.

[ace24]

32 minutes ago, Fruitdealer said:

Just a point on that, if the stats there are to be trusted, then Osgoode has about 50% more of their class getting hired through the 2L OCI recruit than Queens (39% vs 25%), so unless you think you are going to be a much stronger student relative to the rest of your class, Osgoode is probably going to give you better odds. Take into account as well that not everyone at each school actually wants to get into an OCI firm, so 39% at Osgoode means that if you're pretty much right on the median or slightly above, then you have a good shot.

Good to know, although I think I’ll do well in law school I’m not sure if I would perform well enough to significantly outrank my peers, especially with many of the admission stats of this cycle in the same range as mine.  In which case Osgoode and it’s additional benefits continue to be the more attractive choice.  Maybe I will have to take @Darth Vader’s advice and live close by for the first year.  

[CBay]

On 2/2/2022 at 12:50 PM, Darth Vader said:

Osgoode is not necessarily the obvious choice, as Queen's places decently well in Big law and grades are easier to get there than Osgoode as well.

Very curious to hear more about this from you. I'm decided between Osgoode and Dal at the moment, and I've wondered if one school might be easier than the other in terms of grades, and if in turn, strategically choosing that school might land you with better career opportunities due to these higher grades. Another consideration would be if these higher grades outweigh the supposed "prestige" of the more difficult institution.