Engineering to Law

[Boboabebbles]

Hey Everyone,

Posting this to the general section since this question goes out to applicants, students and practicing lawyers alike. Quite simply, I wanted to hear about your experiences with engineers (or any other STEM undergrad background) pursuing law. 

Here are a few sample questions I had in mind:

- How do engineer-types typically fare when going from mathematical/scientific oriented classes to doing more reading and writing?

- Does having a STEM background really help with securing a job after school or is this trope not generally accurate?

-For practicing lawyers who once worked as engineers, which career did you find more rewarding? Why?

- Apart from IP, what other niches are there for lawyers with a STEM background?

I understand that it’s hard to draw broad generalizations from anecdotes  like this, but I am just looking for hear about experiences that I could relate to. I am currently working as a chemical engineer in the energy industry but I have a growing interest in law. 

 

 

 

[Darth Vader]

45 minutes ago, Boboabebbles said:

Hey Everyone,

Posting this to the general section since this question goes out to applicants, students and practicing lawyers alike. Quite simply, I wanted to hear about your experiences with engineers (or any other STEM undergrad background) pursuing law. 

Here are a few sample questions I had in mind:

- How do engineer-types typically fare when going from mathematical/scientific oriented classes to doing more reading and writing?

- Does having a STEM background really help with securing a job after school or is this trope not generally accurate?

-For practicing lawyers who once worked as engineers, which career did you find more rewarding? Why?

- Apart from IP, what other niches are there for lawyers with a STEM background?

I understand that it’s hard to draw broad generalizations from anecdotes  like this, but I am just looking for hear about experiences that I could relate to. I am currently working as a chemical engineer in the energy industry but I have a growing interest in law. 

1) It's different for everyone but a lot of engineers attended top schools for undergrad and are decent or excellent in English, reading, and writing. I find that many STEM grads can even be better at these subjects than arts grads.

2) Having a STEM degree only helps if you are specifically looking to do IP law. And there are lots of people with advanced STEM degrees you are competing with who have master's and PhD degrees as well. Why would any other legal employer care if you have a STEM degree outside of this field?

3) Many engineers I know regret going into law. You will see a lot of engineers and people with computer science degrees going back to these fields after law. See U of T JD/MBA working as a software engineer —https://ca.linkedin.com/in/markvaz— and McGill grad doing a mathematics and computer science degree—https://ca.linkedin.com/in/jkumar3. Generally, you have a better work-life balance in these other fields than you would in law, and the work is more varied and interesting as you can work in any industry with these degrees in different roles. 

4) Maybe tax law which is a more academic and intellectual area of law. If you have strong math and logic skills then you might be drawn to this area. But you see more people with degrees in accounting/business, math, psychology, and economics going into this area.

If you are only going to law school to pursue a Big law career, do a lot of research. The dissatisfaction and burnout rates among Big law lawyers is high and most leave Big law within the first few years of practice to pursue other things. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Darth Vader

[Lawstudents20202020]

For context, my major was in chemistry. While a stem background is definitely helpful for IP, Stem majors are becoming more common in law and it's my understanding that it doesn't carry the same weight as it used to in IP. I do not practice in IP so I can't comment on what the career actually looks like. 

If you have any questions about being a stem major in law feel fee to ask, there's a few of us on here. The short version of my experience is that I got comments on how law school must be easier than undergrad (it's not, it's just different) and people asked if I can make drugs (I can but not for you). 

[Pantalaimon]

On 2/6/2022 at 2:43 PM, Boboabebbles said:

- How do engineer-types typically fare when going from mathematical/scientific oriented classes to doing more reading and writing?

- Does having a STEM background really help with securing a job after school or is this trope not generally accurate?

...

- Apart from IP, what other niches are there for lawyers with a STEM background?

The STEM types in law school generally seem to do quite well; the top three in my class were an engineer, geologist, and business grad. I think that, broadly, only engineers with relatively good reading & writing even want to go to law school (if you're a caricature numbers-only socially awkward type, why would you want to be a lawyer?), so there's a self-selection in terms of the requisite skillset.

I don't think engineering matters for securing a job. Certainly not more than law school grades. Maybe for something like nurse -> med mal it would be more relevant.

In addition to the areas mentioned above, engineering could be useful in regulatory law (depending on the focus). For instance it would probably be helpful if you're preparing submissions for the utilities commission to have worked in that space, just for knowing the lay of the land and the vocabulary.

[Boboabebbles]

On 2/6/2022 at 4:52 PM, Darth Vader said:

1) It's different for everyone but a lot of engineers attended top schools for undergrad and are decent or excellent in English, reading, and writing. I find that many STEM grads can even be better at these subjects than arts grads.

2) Having a STEM degree only helps if you are specifically looking to do IP law. And there are lots of people with advanced STEM degrees you are competing with who have master's and PhD degrees as well. Why would any other legal employer care if you have a STEM degree outside of this field?

3) Many engineers I know regret going into law. You will see a lot of engineers and people with computer science degrees going back to these fields after law. See U of T JD/MBA working as a software engineer —https://ca.linkedin.com/in/markvaz— and McGill grad doing a mathematics and computer science degree—https://ca.linkedin.com/in/jkumar3. Generally, you have a better work-life balance in these other fields than you would in law, and the work is more varied and interesting as you can work in any industry with these degrees in different roles. 

4) Maybe tax law which is a more academic and intellectual area of law. If you have strong math and logic skills then you might be drawn to this area. But you see more people with degrees in accounting/business, math, psychology, and economics going into this area.

If you are only going to law school to pursue a Big law career, do a lot of research. The dissatisfaction and burnout rates among Big law lawyers is high and most leave Big law within the first few years of practice to pursue other things. 

Hey thanks for taking the time to write this out.

On point 2), this is exactly what I wanted to hear more about. I’ve been discussing the idea of law school with friends and family but we all have an outsider’s perspective. Being from a traditional middle class background, I can’t say I have a lot of personal experience with talking to lawyers. What I have noticed though is a lot of people seem to hold this implicit assumption that having a STEM degree is a golden ticket to IP law or a lucrative public sector position. To me this felt like an oversimplification.

On point number 3), you basically verbalized my exact concern. From what I’ve experienced, a lot of engineers feel jaded and under-stimulated and so they tend towards career pivots early on in their career. If what you’re saying is true, and work in the legal field is even less varied and dissatisfying than engineering, then a career pivot on the basis of meaningful work is probably not a good idea. Another thing is career progression - as an engineer there’s a huge array of possibilities as you climb the corporate ladder in large corporations, but I’m not certain that lawyers would have the same opportunity. On the subject of burnout, this one is hard to generalize. While I’ve heard that billable targets can be super demanding for lawyers,  there are some positions in engineering that are extremely taxing  as well. Your run-of-the-mill, C-average engineer may be working an easy 9-5 selling valves out of a catalogue, but there are also others who are responsible for stressful public safety concerns, production quotas, etc. If you’re looking at it in the aggregate, then maybe you could say the average lawyer is more burned out than the average engineer but that’s ignoring a lot of nuance.

I think my biggest takeaway from your response and this thread is that I need to do some more research. I would hate to put all my hopes on a difficult and expensive career pivot only to realize the grass was yellow and crusty on the other side of the fence.

[t3ctonics]

 

Disclaimer first: I'm not an engineer and I don't even have an undergrad degree. My major was English, though I did take a bunch of computer science courses in undergrad, although my major was English. Anyways, I know a few engineers and scientists that became lawyers, as well as many more that have not (and would never even consider becoming lawyers).

As to your questions:

- How do engineer-types typically fare when going from mathematical/scientific oriented classes to doing more reading and writing?

The ones that make the switch and actually get into law school do well. As @Pantalaimon mentioned, self-selection is a factor. I know a lot of engineers whose writing just wouldn't be up to par for law, as well as many that struggle with the subjectivity and uncertainty of legal analysis. I have had many as my clients, so I've seen this firsthand many times. But those ones didn't decide to go into law. 

Most struggle with the density and volume of the readings in law school. They can handle to overall workload, but they usually don't have much experience with the kind of language used (particularly in older cases) or the sheer volume of dense reading that is required - it's just a different kind of work. The ones I know all adapted well enough though. By 2L I don't think there was a noticeable difference in how they handled the readings compared to anyone else.

I also have to note that people with a computer science or at least a coding background tend to intuitively grasp the logic used in complex legal reasoning, and are very good at close reading of legislation and contracts. People with philosophy degrees are similar. 

- Does having a STEM background really help with securing a job after school or is this trope not generally accurate?

From what I've seen it only seems to help with intellectual property and industry-focused practices where the lawyer's background helps them understand the industry better (e.g. I know a former software developer turned lawyer that does corporate and finance work for a variety of tech startups). 

I know a few people that practice IP exclusively, and they all have graduate degrees in hard sciences or engineering. Having that background is by no means a golden ticket to an IP job - it's virtually necessary, but is far from sufficient. Getting in is still a competition for limited opportunities.

-For practicing lawyers who once worked as engineers, which career did you find more rewarding? Why?

I can't speak for them, but all but one of the ones I personally know are still in law after 7+ years, so they must be getting something out of it! The one I know that left law went into management at a tech startup.

- Apart from IP, what other niches are there for lawyers with a STEM background?

As I mentioned above, I don't think there are any other inherent niches, but clients always like it when a lawyer has experience in their field.

Really, in legal practice there is rarely a need for the lawyer to have expertise in any non-law field. Where non-legal professional expertise is required, you just hire the appropriate professional as a consultant or expert witness.

 

[Rashabon]

I'm not going to repeat points because I largely agree with everything has been said. I had a non-engineering STEM background before going to law school. I graduated with honours and have done very well, but my career has nothing to do with my undergraduate degree. I know plenty of engineers that have made the switch and are happy. A bunch have ended up in tax law but there's no strict need for that or necessary 1:1 relationship.

I think it's helpful to note that when people talk about the benefits of a STEM background for IP, it's almost exclusively in the realm of patent work. IP is far broader than that and there are plenty of IP lawyers without that full on background, doing trademark and copyright work and related matters. Although yes, of course, a ton of STEM degrees working on the patent side or on matters where that STEM background can be helpful.

I also agree that having a background can be helpful. I do tech work but if you have a background in tech, that gives you a leg up. I sometimes have to go cross-eyed when reading one of my client's public disclosure, but it's not a deal breaker either to not have that background.

Lastly, it depends what type of engineering. Software might give you a leg up for tech clients. Expertise in oil and gas or mining/geologist related work could give you a leg up in the oil and gas or mining sectors. And so on.

Here are some examples of Bay Street lawyers with engineering degrees:

https://www.mccarthy.ca/en/people/michael-scherman

https://www.torys.com/people/dufresne-yolande

https://www.torys.com/people/de-freitas-tasha#Education

https://www.blakes.com/people/find-a-person/s/jeffrey-shafer#ac-bio-publications

https://www.stikeman.com/en-ca/people/daniel-borlack

 

[NoContest]

I am in the process of making the engineering to law pivot. I am currently a 1L, I will try to be as helpful as possible. 

- How do engineer-types typically fare when going from mathematical/scientific oriented classes to doing more reading and writing?

I don't find the reading to be that bad. Volume wise it is a whole other level from engineering school, I definitely have easily read more than I did in my entire B.ENG by this point, but I have been able to absorb most of the content fairly easily. I did/do still have trouble with some of the more philosophical texts (like HLA Hart for example) but day to day reading cases isn't a problem. 
Writing is a different story, I don't feel I am a particularly strong writer, and I think it takes me significantly more time to write a decent essay than my colleagues. I have been generally been trying to avoid comparisons though, so I can't make that statement with certainty. I will say my worst December exam was Torts in which I had 1.5 hrs to answer a question that asked for a slightly creative response, and my best exam was my 6 hour constitutional law exam that was more of a standard fact-pattern plus policy question. I wasn't really prepared to write something cohesive under so much the time pressure, so I am definitely trying to work on that for my finals. 

Overall, so far I think I am doing decently, most of my grades are above average, but not in the top 10% of the class.

- Does having a STEM background really help with securing a job after school or is this trope not generally accurate?

Can't answer this, but I can say having an existing professional network helped secure a 1L summer job, which can be difficult to come by. 

 

I also can't answer your other questions so much, but I can tell you what motivated me to leave engineering, and choose Law over other possibilities like doing an MBA. 

There was a few things that motivated me to leave, so I will try to be concise. Number 1 was, the career progression as an engineer (like actually doing engineering work) was not what I wanted. I looked at the work my (more senior) colleagues were doing, and it wasn't for me. Also I was working in a boom-and-bust industry with basically 2 large employers (one of which was/is on the verge of bankruptcy) - the choice in the market place was work for them and do well, work for a small or medium size supplier and earn like 50k, or move to another country. I didn't want the rollercoaster ride of layoffs every few years etc, in short I wanted to be flexible and be able to work in/with multiple industries. Lastly, an MBA didn't really appeal to me, I find much of what they teach in business school to be 'mere puff' and I prefer to have at least some technical expertise. 

Now what did I find attractive about law? well number 1 I was genuinely interested in the field. I was lucky enough to be able to pivot and work a year or so in a marginally law adjacent role and enjoyed it. Like I said earlier I also like the idea of having some technical knowledge, and not just peddling puff. I am not entirely sure how my career will progress, for the moment, I am avoiding the temptation to steer myself towards jobs / activites that make sense for my background. I am trying to cast a wide net for now, and take in as many different things as possible.

I hope this was helpful!