Attack on the legal field?

[JudgingJudy]

I’ve noticed that a lot of ppl have a negative perception of lawyers, law students and the legal field as a whole. 
 

Ppl have blatantly told me that lawyers arent smart - and that its relatively easy to get in. Which makes me feel uneasy because I worked hard to get into law school. And its such a horrible assumption to make. They referenced that they knew lawyers who got in who weren’t smart and managed to be successful. 
Obviously it’s a lot of hearsay. With no valid confirmation on these said lawyers. 

I have also heard from 2 law students not to go to law school and that it’s just not worth it. That other careers are far better. 
 

A lawyer I volunteered for in my early years of undergrad told me that law was just not worth all the sacrifices she made? 
 

But why do ppl keep talking about entering the legal field this way? 
Theres this level of pride when it comes to medicine (as there should be), but why isn’t there that same value with law? 
 

Am I missing something? 
 

is it really that bad? 

Edited February 9, 2022 by JudgingJudy

[Pecan Boy]

9 minutes ago, JudgingJudy said:

Ppl have blatantly told me that not all lawyers are smart

Correct

Edited February 9, 2022 by Pecan Boy

[JudgingJudy]

1 minute ago, Pecan Boy said:

Correct

Sorry correction. Their exact wording was “lawyers aren’t smart” 

[Pecan Boy]

Arguably also true

[CheeseToast]

2 minutes ago, JudgingJudy said:

Sorry correction. Their exact wording was “lawyers aren’t smart” 

They must be engineers

[Deadpool]

Why does external validation matter if you are content with your achievements and know that you worked hard for it? You can't make everyone happy. 

Over the years, many people have told me not to do something and I often did the exact opposite of what they said. People said my undergraduate school and degree choice was not competitive — I still did it. People said don't go to law school/become a lawyer (including friends and family) — I still did it. People said don't do public interest clinics in law school and to aim for business careers instead — I still did the former. People said don't go into the public sector, and that I'd make more money in the private sector and that it was more "prestigious" — I still did the former. As a lawyer, people have told me not to make certain career moves — I still did it. 

Needless to say, I am very happy with my choices and with my career. I've worked in the federal and provincial governments and participated in the hiring process for many high-profile legal jobs including with the United Nations. I achieved all this because I did the exact opposite of what most people told me to do. 

You know yourself best so make the best decision you can for yourself and don't look back. Congrats on getting into law school. Your future is looking bright. Good luck.

[Ice]

13 minutes ago, JudgingJudy said:

Ppl have blatantly told me that lawyers arent smart - and that its relatively easy to get in.

Every profession is gonna have people that aren't deemed as smart, lawyers being no different. It also is relatively easy to get in depending on where you apply, but the same can be said for a lot of programs.

 

15 minutes ago, JudgingJudy said:

I have also heard from 2 law students not to go to law school and that it’s just not worth it.

It is and it isn't. If I could go back and do computer science or anything in the tech field I probably would because that's the direction we're trending, but it's also not all about money. If you're going into law just to make money, there's probably better options. Working 50-60 hours in corporate law with all the stresses isn't really worth it for most people, and understandably so. 

 

17 minutes ago, JudgingJudy said:

A lawyer I volunteered for in my early years of undergrad told me that law was just not worth all the sacrifices she made? 

This seems more specific to the person and less about the profession.

 

18 minutes ago, JudgingJudy said:

Theres this level of pride when it comes to medicine (as there should be), but why isn’t there that same value with law? 

Because in medicine your work usually focuses on improving someones quality of life, and that's not always true in the legal profession. That's not to say that lawyers can't do it or don't do it, but it's just not to the same degree that working in medicine can provide.

Even though I'm just an applicant, these are a lot of the same thoughts I had and things I heard too, so that's why I thought I could chime in. I get what you're feeling though and I see why'd you be concerned. The advice I've been given is that once im in law school, just pursue what Im interested in so I'll enjoy the work I do instead of just chasing a bag and giving myself golden handcuffs. Hopefully that's how it'll turn out but honestly who really knows. Maybe im just naive 

[GGrievous]

28 minutes ago, JudgingJudy said:

Ppl have blatantly told me that lawyers arent smart

I hear this all the time from actual successful lawyers/judges. Given that you need relatively mediocre stats to be able to get in, I don't see the issue. Of course there are brilliant people that are lawyers, and "smart" is relative, but overall, where higher education pursuits are involved, I'd agree. 

28 minutes ago, JudgingJudy said:

Theres this level of pride when it comes to medicine

that "pride" is arrogance and I'm grateful we don't have as much of it. 

28 minutes ago, JudgingJudy said:

That other careers are far better. 

Also relative. I can't imagine a better career for myself and my goals. 

Edited February 9, 2022 by Barry

[Pecan Boy]

4 minutes ago, Barry said:

that "pride" is arrogance and I'm grateful we don't have as much of it. 

If there's one thing that lawyers are famous for, it is modesty

[JudgingJudy]

14 minutes ago, CheeseToast said:

They must be engineers

Uh they work at a call center. Not engineers tho. 

[Yogurt Baron]

Okay, two things.

1. People have always made jokes and snide comments about lawyers, to a degree where I find it very strange that an adult wouldn't know that - I'm wondering if this is a cultural thing, because it's really common and absolutely does not constitute an "attack on the legal field". But you're simply not going to find a profession in 2022 that's universally respected by everybody. You say that medicine is more respected, but I'd say that the defining issue roiling our society right now is that a lot of people don't respect doctors. There's a huge strain of anti-elitism and anti-intellectualism running through everything, and any profession is going to be subject to it. You're always going to have that one friend who's an asshole. Ignore him.

2. I tend to notice your posts because Diplock used to have a Judge Judy avatar, and I always think it's him whenever you post something. So one thing I've noticed at least a couple of times in your posts is this formulation: "People say (x) is unimpressive, but that hurts my feelings, because I worked hard to achieve it!" And I'm sorry it hurts your feelings. But...I mean, I have to work hard to operate a fork. There's no relationship between how hard one person has to work for something and how impressive it is to others. You, your family, and your friends should be proud of how hard you've worked and of everything you've achieved, but that doesn't guarantee that what you've achieved will also impress random strangers.

Some people will hear you're going to law school and think it's great. Others will think "Pssh, that's not as good as doing whatever I do." You're not going to receive universal adulation no matter what you do - nobody does. So just do your thing. Be proud of yourself.

[JudgingJudy]

Just now, Pecan Boy said:

If there's one thing that lawyers are famous for, it is modesty

I love this 

[GGrievous]

1 minute ago, Pecan Boy said:

If there's one thing that lawyers are famous for, it is modesty

Well I did say "not as much".. I'm only talking relative to doctors here! 

Edited February 9, 2022 by Barry

[JudgingJudy]

1 minute ago, Yogurt Baron said:

Okay, two things.

1. People have always made jokes and snide comments about lawyers, to a degree where I find it very strange that an adult wouldn't know that - I'm wondering if this is a cultural thing, because it's really common and absolutely does not constitute an "attack on the legal field". But you're simply not going to find a profession in 2022 that's universally respected by everybody. You say that medicine is more respected, but I'd say that the defining issue roiling our society right now is that a lot of people don't respect doctors. There's a huge strain of anti-elitism and anti-intellectualism running through everything, and any profession is going to be subject to it. You're always going to have that one friend who's an asshole. Ignore him.

2. I tend to notice your posts because Diplock used to have a Judge Judy avatar, and I always think it's him whenever you post something. So one thing I've noticed at least a couple of times in your posts is this formulation: "People say (x) is unimpressive, but that hurts my feelings, because I worked hard to achieve it!" And I'm sorry it hurts your feelings. But...I mean, I have to work hard to operate a fork. There's no relationship between how hard one person has to work for something and how impressive it is to others. You, your family, and your friends should be proud of how hard you've worked and of everything you've achieved, but that doesn't guarantee that what you've achieved will also impress random strangers.

Some people will hear you're going to law school and think it's great. Others will think "Pssh, that's not as good as doing whatever I do." You're not going to receive universal adulation no matter what you do - nobody does. So just do your thing. Be proud of yourself.

You know what you managed to figure me out quite well. 
 

I agree self validation is important and I should work harder on it. 
 

I just find that lawyers are always portrayed like cheap disloyal ppl - especially in public and the media. And there’s a lot of negativity about the field. 
 

But ur right it shouldn’t matter. I should worry about my own POV. 
thanks! 

14 minutes ago, Deadpool said:

Why does external validation matter if you are content with your achievements and know that you worked hard for it? You can't make everyone happy. 

Over the years, many people have told me not to do something and I often did the exact opposite of what they said. People said my undergraduate school and degree choice was not competitive — I still did it. People said don't go to law school/become a lawyer (including friends and family) — I still did it. People said don't do public interest clinics in law school and to aim for business careers instead — I still did the former. People said don't go into the public sector, and that I'd make more money in the private sector and that it was more "prestigious" — I still did the former. As a lawyer, people have told me not to make certain career moves — I still did it. 

Needless to say, I am very happy with my choices and with my career. I've worked in the federal and provincial governments and participated in the hiring process for many high-profile legal jobs including with the United Nations. I achieved all this because I did the exact opposite of what most people told me to do. 

You know yourself best so make the best decision you can for yourself and don't look back. Congrats on getting into law school. Your future is looking bright. Good luck.

Thank you. This is 100% how I felt my entire academic life since I chose my undergrad that was deemed useless, and then when I choose to go into law. And was also told that I shouldn’t pursue that. 
I can relate to this so much. Thanks deadpool 😊 

[GGrievous]

2 minutes ago, JudgingJudy said:

cheap

I resent that

[Turtles]

If you derive your self-esteem and self-worth from some group identity, you're going to have a bad time. Every large group will have some dumb people, some racist people, some unethical people, etc.

Be you.

[CleanHands]

It's ironic that the OP is barely literate. It seems that the comments about perceived lack of intelligence struck a nerve.

Lots of people hate lawyers because regular Joes only need to hire them during the worst moments of their lives and don't like having to pay hundreds of dollars an hour on top of situations that are already extremely negative and stressful. Not surprising. It's like how people hate going to the dentist because nobody likes being out of pocket hundreds of dollars to get their teeth drilled, and this translates into misplaced dislike of dentists themselves even though they are providing a valuable service.

And then non-retail/BigLaw lawyers are disliked because they are in an empowered position in our society where they could do genuine good if they wanted but they have decided that they'd rather spend their time and energy figuring out how to save Walmart a few bucks instead, because they simply don't care about the social problems they are uniquely equipped to do something about. This is a view I didn't used to subscribe to but funny enough through exposure to the field I came around to holding myself.

Lawyers are not inherently, universally "smart." The bar to entry in this profession is low. Anyone who doesn't have an outright intellectual disability can buy a Bond degree, get called to the bar, and work at their father's firm if they are fortunate enough to have such connections. In my position I am exposed to some of the smartest and most talented lawyers in the country and some people doing the same sort of work who are shockingly, terrifyingly incompetent (while in positions of significant responsibility). And yes, the latter people can be quite successful in financial terms, because unsophisticated clients can't tell what incompetence looks like. But in any event, respect and recognition for one's intelligence is something that is earned through demonstration of such qualities. It isn't automatically conferred or assumed just because of a job title or professional qualification, and it shouldn't be.

Anyways, if this is of significant concern for you, you're considering law for all the wrong reasons. The "prestige," the nice feeling you get from telling people what you do, occasionally hearing someone find any of that impressive...that all stops being all that neat pretty damn fast. And if you are putting in long hours doing work that you hate and see no value in, at the behest of assholes, having laypeople think that you are smart wouldn't make that all worth it anyways. What does make it worth it is doing meaningful work that gives you a reason to get up in the morning.

Edited February 9, 2022 by CleanHands

[JudgingJudy]

3 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

It's ironic that the OP is barely literate. It seems that the comments about perceived lack of intelligence struck a nerve.

Lots of people hate lawyers because regular Joes only need to hire them during the worst moments of their lives and don't like having to pay hundreds of dollars an hour on top of situations that are already extremely negative and stressful. Not surprising. It's like how people hate going to the dentist because nobody likes being out of pocket hundreds of dollars to get their teeth drilled, and this translates into misplaced dislike of dentists themselves even though they are providing a valuable service.

And then non-retail/BigLaw lawyers are disliked because they are in an empowered position in our society where they could do genuine good if they wanted but they have decided that they'd rather spend their time and energy figuring out how to save Walmart a few bucks instead, because they simply don't care about the social problems they are uniquely equipped to do something about. This is a view I didn't used to subscribe to but funny enough through exposure to the field I came around to holding myself.

Lawyers are not inherently, universally "smart." The bar to entry in this profession is low. Anyone who doesn't have an outright intellectual disability can buy a Bond degree, get called to the bar, and work at their father's firm if they are fortunate enough to have such connections. In my position I am exposed to some of the smartest and most talented lawyers in the country and some people doing the same sort of work who are shockingly, terrifyingly incompetent (while in positions of significant responsibility). And yes, the latter people can be quite successful in financial terms, because unsophisticated clients can't tell what incompetence looks like. But in any event, respect and recognition for one's intelligence is something that is earned through demonstration of such qualities. It isn't automatically conferred or assumed just because of a job title or professional qualification, and it shouldn't be.

Anyways, if this is of significant concern for you, you're considering law for all the wrong reasons. The "prestige," the nice feeling you get from telling people what you do, occasionally hearing someone find any of that impressive...that all stops being all that neat pretty damn fast. And if you are putting in long hours doing work that you hate and see no value in, at the behest of assholes, having laypeople think that you are smart wouldn't make that all worth it anyways. What does make it worth it is doing meaningful work that gives you a reason to get up in the morning.

You know what clean hands when I first saw you on the older forum I def disliked your negative statements. 
 

But now I look forward to it. Perhaps overtime, I’ll also feel this way about everyone’s negative opinions about the legal field.

[CleanHands]

20 minutes ago, Yogurt Baron said:

1. People have always made jokes and snide comments about lawyers, to a degree where I find it very strange that an adult wouldn't know that - I'm wondering if this is a cultural thing, because it's really common and absolutely does not constitute an "attack on the legal field".

As an aside, for whatever reason I can remember as a child watching the music video for Weird Al's "Jurassic Park" which includes the following lyrics:

"A huge tyrannosaurus ate our lawyer
Well, I suppose that proves
They're really not all bad"

And I can recall telling my father I didn't get that and him explaining to me that people don't like lawyers. That was the moment I learned of this fact of life.

[sapsipper]

These issues aren't exclusive to law, just check out any med school forum and you'll see it's not exactly rosy.

[JudgingJudy]

Just now, CleanHands said:

As an aside, for whatever reason I can remember as a child watching the music video for Weird Al's "Jurassic Park" which includes the following lyrics:

"A huge tyrannosaurus ate our lawyer
Well, I suppose that proves
They're really not all bad"

And I can recall telling my father I didn't get that and him explaining to me that people don't like lawyers. That was the moment I learned of this fact of life.

I’m not going to lie that’s really cute. 🥺 
Thank you for sharing that! 
 

I knew you had a soft side ! 😂

[razraini]

I think that a lot of the broader cultural distaste for the legal profession and its purported stupidity come from two reflexive features of being a lawyer:

(1) our job fundamentally involves something nearly everyone has some facility with: language (I think there actually might be an old Reddit post on this floating around), and

(2) knowing the difference between factual truth and legal truth (especially in criminal law but it feeds into resentment about other areas I think)

With nearly almost every other profession, it is palpable that they can do things that the general public cannot. The general public understands and accepts that. It is self-evident to most that they do not have the knowledge or ability to conduct surgery or put together complex financial instruments, etc. But typically lawyers are just dealing with words and their arrangements. We read, write and some of us argue from time to time. For someone from the outside looking in, that just looks like something most everyone does on a near daily basis. What could possibly be special about that?

Generally, lawyers are concerned with what is legally true or what can be proven at law. Joe Blow on the street is concerned with factual truth which often boils down to what everyone "knows" or some narrow self-serving definition of common sense. The inability to distinguish between legal truth and factual truth at least makes it look like lawyers can be unnecessarily splitting hairs and talking just to talk. Again, from someone from the outside looking in, how difficult could it be to prove that Person X punched Person Y even though both were grossly intoxicated and neither really remembers anything and there were no independent witnesses and Person X denies doing but Person Y wouldn't just make up an allegation.

As for internal critiques of the legal profession, I don't think most are off-base on an individual level. But I often think that some cynical takes on the legal profession writ large belie a certain amount of personal disappointment. A lot of this work isn't all that intellectually engaging or mentally stimulating. It is often exhausting, tedious and demanding, and one lawyer falling short of the standards of adequate work creates more exhausting, tedious and demanding work for another lawyer (or judge). Hence, that lawyer is stupid.

 

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by razraini

[CleanHands]

2 minutes ago, razraini said:

-Snip-

Yes, I've long said that law was particularly susceptible to the Dunning-Kruger effect for this reason. We employ language that most people are familiar with in its colloquial--but not technical--sense. And most people don't really appreciate this distinction.

Although it's interesting that conversely to this, laypeople tend to think that lawyers are walking encyclopedias who can provide immediate answers to any extremely fact-specific and contextual question about any area of law, when really lawyers are basically just people who have some idea of how to Google and some training to interpret the results of said Googling.

[razraini]

12 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

Yes, I've long said that law was particularly susceptible to the Dunning-Kruger effect for this reason. We employ language that most people are familiar with in its colloquial--but not technical--sense. And most people don't really appreciate this distinction.

Although it's interesting that conversely to this, laypeople tend to think that lawyers are walking encyclopedias who can provide immediate answers to any extremely fact-specific and contextual question about any area of law, when really lawyers are basically just people who have some idea of how to Google and some training to interpret the results of said Googling.

I think, IMHO, that many people reason mostly be analogy rather than from first principles. And lawyers definitely do the same when we look for similar decisions/cases to make a point. That's the whole point of precedent and stare decisis. But frankly most cases turn on their own facts. Part of the difficulty with lawyering is analyzing the extent to which any two cases are similar or different. Which again, for the onlooker, comparison and contrast is just part of being alive. But in legal practice, it can be a fairly counterintuitive process.

Not to rep my profile pic too much, but this is the sort of confusion Wittgenstein thought could be dissolved by recognizing that the meaning of words (and by extension community practices) differ depending on the "game" at play.

So I think that a lot of popular misconceptions about lawyers' and their perceived intelligence are something a cultural strawman. If judged as though they operate by the same set of rules, norms, concerns and practices as non-lawyers, then lawyers are obviously stupid. If judged by their own group's sets of rules, norms, concerns and practices, lawyers can still be stupid but for different reasons. Not exactly profound but I think it is generally worth remembering that...

Edited February 9, 2022 by razraini

[student1023]

Keep in mind that Canadians tend to be obnoxiously self-deprecating.

I've noticed a world of difference between my American and Canadian co-workers in their attitude. Like, man, okay haha I get it you're actually a complete moron and your accomplishments are unimpressive but you've said that 300 times now.