Question about New York recruit

[atarack]

I saw the statistics about New York summer recruits on Canadian law schools.

Indeed, U of T, the best in Canada, got the most students recruited - 24 in 2020, and 37 in 2021.

But only 2 Osgoode Hall students got recruited at New York summer recruit in 2020.

 

Considering the similar Toronto summer recruit numbers, I wonder why there is so much difference in numbers.

Would anyone explain why?

Edited February 10, 2022 by atarack

[Peculiar Frond]

Network effects, mostly. (How many Osgoode partners are there in New York advocating for Osgoode’s alum?)

Second, as a general matter, New York firms select heavily on law school when recruiting, both within the US and even their city. For example, a bottom-quartile Yale grad can walk into just about anywhere. A top-quartile Fordham student (LSAT median? 166) will struggle to get a big law job down the street. 

A third factor is bias within the Toronto recruit itself.  Only selective and very large NY Big Law firms recruit in Toronto, so the effects described above are somewhat exacerbated. 

I’m not saying any of this is justified or good, but I hope that explains it. 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Peculiar Frond

[mistertubby]

27 minutes ago, Peculiar Frond said:

A top-quartile Fordham student (LSAT median? 166) will struggle to get a big law job down the street. 

I dispute this, Fordham does pretty well in biglaw. 143/397 graduates landed in 501+ attorney firms in 2020, and the percentage probably goes up after accounting for selection. 

https://www.fordham.edu/download/downloads/id/15683/Class_of_2020_at_10_months.pdf

[Peculiar Frond]

Fordham’s Big Law placement rate, in particular, seems rather beside the point. I agree that Fordham does better than other similarly ranked schools. But the top US schools are in a different league entirely, both in and outside of Big Law (e.g. clerkships, etc.). 

For the record, my little quip was based on this press release from Fordham itself. Fordham says it is #20 in the US in Big Law placement for sending 23.44% of its grads to AM 100 firms. Columbia is apparently #1 at over 60%. I don’t know or care to know how this metric was calculated, but there you go. 

[Twenty]

9 hours ago, atarack said:

Considering the similar Toronto summer recruit numbers, I wonder why there is so much difference in numbers.

U of T and Oz both send the same raw number of students to Bay Street, but iirc, ~50% of U of T students land Bay Street jobs in the summer recruit vs. the ~33% at Oz. 

[Insert something about selection bias between the two schools and the response of "are Oz students really selecting out of Bay Street moreso than U of T students at a greater rate?"]

At any rate, U of T has been sending students to New York for quite some time. Therefore the firms over there are fairly comfortable with hiring competitive U of T grads. Don't know about Oz though. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Twenty

[atarack]

9 hours ago, Peculiar Frond said:

Fordham’s Big Law placement rate, in particular, seems rather beside the point. I agree that Fordham does better than other similarly ranked schools. But the top US schools are in a different league entirely, both in and outside of Big Law (e.g. clerkships, etc.). 

For the record, my little quip was based on this press release from Fordham itself. Fordham says it is #20 in the US in Big Law placement for sending 23.44% of its grads to AM 100 firms. Columbia is apparently #1 at over 60%. I don’t know or care to know how this metric was calculated, but there you go. 

 

10 hours ago, mistertubby said:

I dispute this, Fordham does pretty well in biglaw. 143/397 graduates landed in 501+ attorney firms in 2020, and the percentage probably goes up after accounting for selection. 

https://www.fordham.edu/download/downloads/id/15683/Class_of_2020_at_10_months.pdf

 

I believe we don't need to dispute here. And I think the dissent is due to criterion toward Big Law.

There are many firms that could be called Big Law besides AM 100 firms.

In fact, Fordham also officially showed 50+% of its graduates goes to Large Law firms which can indicate Big Law.

https://digital.law.fordham.edu/viewbook-2019-2020/by-the-numbers/

Anyway, this topic is not for Fordham.

 

 

10 hours ago, Peculiar Frond said:

Network effects, mostly. (How many Osgoode partners are there in New York advocating for Osgoode’s alum?)

Second, as a general matter, New York firms select heavily on law school when recruiting, both within the US and even their city. For example, a bottom-quartile Yale grad can walk into just about anywhere. A top-quartile Fordham student (LSAT median? 166) will struggle to get a big law job down the street. 

A third factor is bias within the Toronto recruit itself.  Only selective and very large NY Big Law firms recruit in Toronto, so the effects described above are somewhat exacerbated. 

I’m not saying any of this is justified or good, but I hope that explains it. 

Thanks for the answer.

Do you think the gap of the networking effect and bias would be somewhat mitigated in the case of Big Laws that have offices in Toronto?

Edited February 11, 2022 by atarack

[atarack]

1 hour ago, Twenty said:

U of T and Oz both send the same raw number of students to Bay Street, but iirc, ~50% of U of T students land Bay Street jobs in the summer recruit vs. the ~33% at Oz. 

[Insert something about selection bias between the two schools and the response of "are Oz students really selecting out of Bay Street moreso than U of T students at a greater rate?"]

At any rate, U of T has been sending students to New York for quite some time. Therefore the firms over there are fairly comfortable with hiring competitive U of T grads. Don't know about Oz though. 

Thanks for the reply. 

So do you think the difference in numbers is because of selection bias that might have resulted from not knowing well about Oz and its graduate?

Edited February 11, 2022 by atarack

[Twenty]

2 hours ago, atarack said:

Thanks for the reply. 

So do you think the difference in numbers is because of selection bias that might have resulted from not knowing well about Oz and its graduate?

Hmmm...I don't know. I never really looked into NYC. Just know that there are some pretty veteran NYC U of T alum, indicating that U of T has had a presence in the NYC market for a while. Also, I'm not sure if selection bias is the term I would go for.

If you want to practice in NYC straight out of law school, your best bet is the U of T JD (/MBA) program. But if that doesn't pan out, you can always try to lateral from Bay Street (and even from other markets like Vancouver and Calgary). 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Twenty

[Moodyfufu]

I am at Osgoode and know personally at least 6 students going to NY Big Law next year. Not all reporting is always 100% correct so I would take these numbers with a grain of salt as most are based on student survey data from my understanding. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Moodyfufu

[AHappyLawyer]

The comparison Ultravires article you are looking at listed like 10 US firms (the ones with established UofT recruiting relationships). For example, it's missing Skadden, Cravath, Goodwin, Cooley, Pillsbury and some other firms with Osgoode students going there. In reality there are like 50-100 "top" NY firms that may take Canadians as a resume drop. Google "osgoode new york linkedin" as a search string and you can see the Osgoode people there. 

In general for US recruiting, it goes UofT JD/MBA > UofT >= Osgoode JD/MBA > Osgoode > rest of the Ontario schools. I wouldn't worry about this at all until you are in 1L, by which time you'll see a lot rides on how we you do grade-wise for these very small sub-set of opportunities. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by AHappyLawyer

[togetic]

On 2/10/2022 at 1:46 PM, Peculiar Frond said:

Network effects, mostly. (How many Osgoode partners are there in New York advocating for Osgoode’s alum?)

I just went through this process and I don't think think this is a big factor. Several U of T friends tried to reach out and network with U of T partners at those firms who wouldn't even give them the time of day. And, the hiring committee and whoever did your callbacks are the only people making the decision 99% of the time. 

16 hours ago, Moodyfufu said:

I am at Osgoode and know personally at least 6 students going to NY Big Law next year.

If this means they're going to be summer associates there Summer 2022, I feel like this is quite consistent with OP's numbers. They took more people this year from Canada it seems at U of T too (24-->37)

My two cents, for what it's worth, is that I think the U.S. big law firms are just more comfortable hiring out of schools in Canada that they see as comparable to who they're hiring in the States. To use the roughest proxy, the median LSAT at the schools that they like to hire the vast, vast majority of their entering class from in the States probably doesn't drop below 168-169. https://7sage.com/top-law-school-admissions/. Plus, NY big law has a preference for U.S. educated law students, so the Canadian factor also will play in a little bit.

Not to say that they don't hire from Osgoode (they clearly do) but that your odds if you wanna land a NY big law job are probably way higher at U of T. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by togetic

[atarack]

22 hours ago, Twenty said:

Hmmm...I don't know. I never really looked into NYC. Just know that there are some pretty veteran NYC U of T alum, indicating that U of T has had a presence in the NYC market for a while. Also, I'm not sure if selection bias is the term I would go for.

If you want to practice in NYC straight out of law school, your best bet is the U of T JD (/MBA) program. But if that doesn't pan out, you can always try to lateral from Bay Street (and even from other markets like Vancouver and Calgary). 

Thank you for the reply!

Do you think that it is common or easily feasible for Bay Street lawyers to transfer to NY Big Law?

It seems like I am counting the chickens before they are hatched but as an international student, I hope to learn in advance about the options I have when I become a lawyer.

This could help me to be more resolute and prepare my mind before studying in Oz.

 

[atarack]

17 hours ago, Moodyfufu said:

I am at Osgoode and know personally at least 6 students going to NY Big Law next year. Not all reporting is always 100% correct so I would take these numbers with a grain of salt as most are based on student survey data from my understanding. 

 

1 hour ago, AHappyLawyer said:

The comparison Ultravires article you are looking at listed like 10 US firms (the ones with established UofT recruiting relationships). For example, it's missing Skadden, Cravath, Goodwin, Cooley, Pillsbury and some other firms with Osgoode students going there. In reality there are like 50-100 "top" NY firms that may take Canadians as a resume drop. Google "osgoode new york linkedin" as a search string and you can see the Osgoode people there. 

In general for US recruiting, it goes UofT JD/MBA > UofT >= Osgoode JD/MBA > Osgoode > rest of the Ontario schools. I wouldn't worry about this at all until you are in 1L, by which time you'll see a lot rides on how we you do grade-wise for these very small sub-set of opportunities. 

Thanks for the replies!

Two replies make sense to me on why there is a difference in numbers.

And by the way, do you know whether Bay Street lawyers transfer to NY firms quite frequently?

It' like like I am counting the chickens before they are hatched - I know I may not succeed to enter Bay Street, let alone NY big firms, as these are not easy tasks.

But as an international student, I hope to learn in advance about the options I have when I become a lawyer,

which could allow me to prepare my mind toward studying and exams before the semester starts in Oz.

Edited February 12, 2022 by atarack

[atarack]

1 hour ago, togetic said:

I just went through this process and I don't think think this is a big factor. Several U of T friends tried to reach out and network with U of T partners at those firms who wouldn't even give them the time of day. And, the hiring committee and whoever did your callbacks are the only people making the decision 99% of the time. 

If this means they're going to be summer associates there Summer 2022, I feel like this is quite consistent with OP's numbers. They took more people this year from Canada it seems at U of T too (24-->37)

My two cents, for what it's worth, is that I think the U.S. big law firms are just more comfortable hiring out of schools in Canada that they see as comparable to who they're hiring in the States. To use the roughest proxy, the median LSAT at the schools that they like to hire the vast, vast majority of their entering class from in the States probably doesn't drop below 168-169. https://7sage.com/top-law-school-admissions/. Plus, NY big law has a preference for U.S. educated law students, so the Canadian factor also will play in a little bit.

Not to say that they don't hire from Osgoode (they clearly do) but that your odds if you wanna land a NY big law job are probably way higher at U of T. 

Thanks for the reply.

Considering my status of a international student, I can not go directly to NY to work due to visa problem and don't know whether I will choose to go to NY even though I have the choice.

So the reason I asked this question is because I wanted to know the perspective of NYC recruiters toward Oz.

As an international student, I don't know well about how the law industry is in Canada and would like to find out the options I have which could allow me to prepare myself beforehand.

Thus, I would like to ask you whether it is quite feasible for Canadian lawyers or maybe Bay Street ones to move to NYC?

And one more thing, you said that USA recruiters are more comfortable toward schools whose median does not drop below 168.

In case of UBC, its median is quite similar to that criterion. Do you think UBC would be more suitable choice when I consider working in USA although it might be right after graduation and articling?

[Chemistry124]

24 minutes ago, atarack said:

Thus, I would like to ask you whether it is quite feasible for Canadian lawyers or maybe Bay Street ones to move to NYC?

And one more thing, you said that USA recruiters are more comfortable toward schools whose median does not drop below 168.

In case of UBC, its median is quite similar to that criterion. Do you think UBC would be more suitable choice when I consider working in USA although it might be right after graduation and articling?

1. It is quite feasible for Canadians to move down south of the border, but this is highly practice dependent. There are some areas where the legal knowledge and professional skillsets have a lot of overlap (M&A/cap markets/finance). Transactional practices are also the ones that have the most demand for bodies, so comparatively, there's a lower degree of competition for them.

For other areas with less overlap and more importantly, fewer positions to fill, it will be a lot harder for a Canadian associate to lateral. To do so, you better have damn good pedigree/grades/work experience for areas like general litigation or niche practices. S&C has like a dozen Supreme Court (of Canada) clerks working there (+ BCCA, FCA clerks etc.), primarily in lit.

2. I don't think UBC or Osgoode's medians really come into play in terms of perception of the quality of the school. While Biglaw is quite snobby about pedigree, most US firms generally aren't too familiar with Canadian schools other than Toronto being the "best" school in Canada. Once you're past the summer recruiting phase, it will mostly depend on your work experience, staffing needs of the firm, and maybe your grades.

If you are going to Oz and want to get to NY eventually, it will be highly advantageous for you to work at a reputable firm in a transactional practice. Also, consider getting Canadian citizenship before you attempt the move. Having the TN visa as a backup to the H1-b will improve your recruiting odds significantly. 

[ProudCrocodile]

54 minutes ago, atarack said:

I consider working in USA although it might be right after graduation and articling?

Also an international applicant, I'd like to chime in that visa should be a top concern if you wish to work in the states. TN visas are only available for citizens of Canada and Mexico, while H1b may be hard to get even for int'l students in lower ranked T14. If what you really want is practising in the states, assuming you have no connections in neither US nor Canada, US law schools should be a better option. 

I just want to say that US should not be an *important* factor when choosing canadian law schools as an int'l student who need to worry about PR/work permit.

[atarack]

21 minutes ago, ProudCrocodile said:

Also an international applicant, I'd like to chime in that visa should be a top concern if you wish to work in the states. TN visas are only available for citizens of Canada and Mexico, while H1b may be hard to get even for int'l students in lower ranked T14. If what you really want is practising in the states, assuming you have no connections in neither US nor Canada, US law schools should be a better option. 

I just want to say that US should not be an *important* factor when choosing canadian law schools as an int'l student who need to worry about PR/work permit.

Thank you for the reply.

I found out I forget to add "not" in the sentence you quoted...

Anyway, I don't plan to go directly to USA - I don't know whether I will try it in the future as I might be satisfied with the life in Canada.

Do you think getting Canadian citizenship would be quite necessary when I consider working in USA or when I worked consistently in Canada?

(As I got offers from law schools, one of my biggest concern is whether I should get a citizenship or just a permanent residency.)

[atarack]

1 hour ago, Chemistry124 said:

1. It is quite feasible for Canadians to move down south of the border, but this is highly practice dependent. There are some areas where the legal knowledge and professional skillsets have a lot of overlap (M&A/cap markets/finance). Transactional practices are also the ones that have the most demand for bodies, so comparatively, there's a lower degree of competition for them.

For other areas with less overlap and more importantly, fewer positions to fill, it will be a lot harder for a Canadian associate to lateral. To do so, you better have damn good pedigree/grades/work experience for areas like general litigation or niche practices. S&C has like a dozen Supreme Court (of Canada) clerks working there (+ BCCA, FCA clerks etc.), primarily in lit.

2. I don't think UBC or Osgoode's medians really come into play in terms of perception of the quality of the school. While Biglaw is quite snobby about pedigree, most US firms generally aren't too familiar with Canadian schools other than Toronto being the "best" school in Canada. Once you're past the summer recruiting phase, it will mostly depend on your work experience, staffing needs of the firm, and maybe your grades.

If you are going to Oz and want to get to NY eventually, it will be highly advantageous for you to work at a reputable firm in a transactional practice. Also, consider getting Canadian citizenship before you attempt the move. Having the TN visa as a backup to the H1-b will improve your recruiting odds significantly. 

Thank you for detailed advice!

May I ask whether the move is quite feasible as an associate or as a partner?

I saw lots of Oz students working as an associate but not as a partner so I would like to know about that as well.

[Rashabon]

Making partner in New York is a lot more difficult than in Canada in general, but Canadians do make partner at these firms. Most people lateral as associates. By the time you’re a partner it is less common. You see more people lateral from the US as partners as opposed to to the US.

[Peculiar Frond]

8 hours ago, togetic said:

I just went through this process and I don't think think this is a big factor. Several U of T friends tried to reach out and network with U of T partners at those firms who wouldn't even give them the time of day. And, the hiring committee and whoever did your callbacks are the only people making the decision 99% of the time. 

I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression.  My point was not that students from some schools can network more easily.  Rather, having alumni in a firm is intrinsically helpful.  If a firm has a bunch of partners and associates from a law school, that firm is more likely to recruit students from that school.  "Networking," as in the verb, has little to do with it. 

On 2/11/2022 at 12:24 AM, atarack said:

Do you think the gap of the networking effect and bias would be somewhat mitigated in the case of Big Laws that have offices in Toronto?

Yes.  But hiring is almost always and office-by-office affair.  Recall that these firms' Toronto offices participate in the Toronto recruit, not the New York recruit, if they recruit at all.  With one or maybe two exceptions, they meet their hiring needs through laterals, ad hoc hiring, or internal transfers.   

[atarack]

2 hours ago, Rashabon said:

Making partner in New York is a lot more difficult than in Canada in general, but Canadians do make partner at these firms. Most people lateral as associates. By the time you’re a partner it is less common. You see more people lateral from the US as partners as opposed to to the US.

Thank you for the reply.

You said, 'Making partner in New York is a lot more difficult than in Canada in general.'

I would like to ask a question about this from a mere curiosity.

Would you explain why it is much more difficult to be a partner in New York than in Canada.

There are lots of lawyers from top law schools in NY but there are a lot more Big Laws and bigger law market as well.

In Toronto, there is a smaller law market but there are fewer lawyers as well.

So I wonder why achieving to be a partner is much harder in NY.

Is it because of quality of lawyers? Or because of other reasons?

[atarack]

1 hour ago, Peculiar Frond said:

I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression.  My point was not that students from some schools can network more easily.  Rather, having alumni in a firm is intrinsically helpful.  If a firm has a bunch of partners and associates from a law school, that firm is more likely to recruit students from that school.  "Networking," as in the verb, has little to do with it. 

Yes.  But hiring is almost always and office-by-office affair.  Recall that these firms' Toronto offices participate in the Toronto recruit, not the New York recruit, if they recruit at all.  With one or maybe two exceptions, they meet their hiring needs through laterals, ad hoc hiring, or internal transfers.   

Thank you for the information!

This is kind of out of topic but may I ask whether lateraling to US firms in Toronto is feasible from other law firms in Canada?

I saw some US law firms having offices in Toronto but felt like they are all small offices.

[Rashabon]

1 hour ago, atarack said:

Thank you for the reply.

You said, 'Making partner in New York is a lot more difficult than in Canada in general.'

I would like to ask a question about this from a mere curiosity.

Would you explain why it is much more difficult to be a partner in New York than in Canada.

There are lots of lawyers from top law schools in NY but there are a lot more Big Laws and bigger law market as well.

In Toronto, there is a smaller law market but there are fewer lawyers as well.

So I wonder why achieving to be a partner is much harder in NY.

Is it because of quality of lawyers? Or because of other reasons?

It's because they don't want to make as many partners per capita as the Canadian law firms do.

[togetic]

12 hours ago, Peculiar Frond said:

My point was not that students from some schools can network more easily.  Rather, having alumni in a firm is intrinsically helpful.

Totally agree! Thanks for clarifying. Having people at firms be generally familiar with U of T students certainly does help.

 

20 hours ago, atarack said:

And one more thing, you said that USA recruiters are more comfortable toward schools whose median does not drop below 168.

 

That wasn't my point, and I apologize for the confusion. I'm not saying that US law firms are looking from schools with LSAT medians around the schools that they recruit in, but rather that, to put it crudely, US law firms want to recruit out of a certain type of school, and U of T looks like the typical school they like to recruit out of than Osgoode does. All this to say, they likely see U of T as a comparable school to those in the T-14 and so have been willing to recruit out of U of T. Like @Chemistry124 said, they probably just know U of T as the best Canadian school and so are far more likely to recruit from there.

 

20 hours ago, atarack said:

Considering my status of a international student, I can not go directly to NY to work due to visa problem and don't know whether I will choose to go to NY even though I have the choice.

 

This may be a problem. One of the things that make Canadians attractive to American firms is that Canadians can work there on the TN visa which is pretty straightforward, so American firms know that even if they never sponsor them for H1B lottery or if they don't get the lottery Canadians can still work at their firms. 

 

 

 

[atarack]

On 2/13/2022 at 2:55 AM, Rashabon said:

It's because they don't want to make as many partners per capita as the Canadian law firms do.

Thank you for the reply.

That's a interesting point. I never expect that. Thanks for the information!

On 2/13/2022 at 12:48 PM, togetic said:

This may be a problem. One of the things that make Canadians attractive to American firms is that Canadians can work there on the TN visa which is pretty straightforward, so American firms know that even if they never sponsor them for H1B lottery or if they don't get the lottery Canadians can still work at their firms. 

Thanks for the reply.

Then, I may think of getting a citizenship as well. I will definitely search that. Thanks!