Strategies for overcoming a catastrophic undergrad GPA

[filicophyta]

I graduated last summer with a 2.64 cumulative average and a messy and confusing transcript overall; I am nonetheless determined to go to law school as soon as possible, and not as a mature student. My first question is this: am I correct in assuming that, even if I apply access and score a top-percentage LSAT, the GPA is unworkable? 

If it is unworkable, I imagine my next step would be to apply to do a second undergrad. I've resolved the mental health issues that tanked my GPA and assume I'll be getting better grades. If my grades have improved significantly, how soon into my second degree could I present a competitive application? Could my improved grades from the end of the first degree be taken into account? What does my best possible timeline look like?

And finally, I would of course appreciate any other ideas and options I haven't thought of yet. Thanks!

[qsizzle]

Hey,

So with that GPA it'd be very difficult to get into law school. Even with a top percentile LSAT and a 3.0 is pushing it.

That being said, going back to school is your best option. You don't need an entire undergrad degree again. You could do open studies for 2 years and apply to L2/B2 school. (U of C/ U of A/ Queen's... Ect.)

If you do decide to do another whole degree, your previous degree will likely still count, but if you show major improvements it'll likely not impact it majorly.

Good luck!

[CleanHands]

12 minutes ago, filicophyta said:

My first question is this: am I correct in assuming that, even if I apply access and score a top-percentage LSAT, the GPA is unworkable? 

Almost certainly yes, unfortunately.

I had a bad cGPA but it was still higher than yours. Competitive but not exceptional L2/B2 and 99th percentile LSAT. The disparity between my cGPA and L2/B2 was due to medical issues at the start of my undergrad that were resolved. I had medical documentation to prove this, my L2/B2 demonstrated reasonable academic aptitude and my LSAT spoke for itself and provided reassurance. I was able to craft a compelling story and cGPA was the only weak spot in my profile. I applied broadly and things were still a bit of a crapshoot, even at supposed L2/B2 schools where I had their median L2/B2 GPA for admits and an LSAT score well in excess of their medians.

Even with medical documentation, the problem here is that you have not demonstrated any academic aptitude whatsoever and are not yet able to illustrate that in the absence of medical issues you are able to perform at the level that law schools would like to see. For this reason I believe that additional studies with high grades would make a huge difference. Even an exceptional LSAT score wouldn't have the same effect because there are people out there who have natural aptitude for the cognitive skills that the LSAT tests but who for whatever reason (motivation, interest, attention span, etc) are not competent at academic pursuits.

19 minutes ago, filicophyta said:

If it is unworkable, I imagine my next step would be to apply to do a second undergrad. I've resolved the mental health issues that tanked my GPA and assume I'll be getting better grades. If my grades have improved significantly, how soon into my second degree could I present a competitive application? Could my improved grades from the end of the first degree be taken into account? What does my best possible timeline look like?

Nobody can say this with certainty or down to a science, because there is no straight, definitive answer. You are in a unique situation and will be presenting a unique application and asking for a non-standard assessment and different schools and even different adcom members will approach this differently.

With that said, I agree with the above poster that having a solid 2 years of academic performance is probably the safe assumption for the minimum you want to be able to point to. And you would stand a good shot at L2/B2 schools with solid L2/B2 grades and a solid LSAT, notwithstanding a terrible cGPA.

Good luck. This likely will not be a short or easy path for you, but worthwhile destinations usually require longer and more challenging ones.

[NowOrNever]

27 minutes ago, filicophyta said:

I graduated last summer with a 2.64 cumulative average and a messy and confusing transcript overall; I am nonetheless determined to go to law school as soon as possible, and not as a mature student. My first question is this: am I correct in assuming that, even if I apply access and score a top-percentage LSAT, the GPA is unworkable? 

If it is unworkable, I imagine my next step would be to apply to do a second undergrad. I've resolved the mental health issues that tanked my GPA and assume I'll be getting better grades. If my grades have improved significantly, how soon into my second degree could I present a competitive application? Could my improved grades from the end of the first degree be taken into account? What does my best possible timeline look like?

And finally, I would of course appreciate any other ideas and options I haven't thought of yet. Thanks!

What is your L2 and B2 GPA?

It they are around 3.7 / 4.0 you are still OK so you can concentrate to LSAT preparation.

If not the quickest way to improve your L2 GPA is registering as a non-degree student to take the courses needed.

[Yogurt Baron]

I was in a similar situation to yours, minus about two and a half points of GPA. My first undergrad was a disaster. I'd hoped the access category would do it for me; it did not. I did a second undergrad, started all over from scratch, did the full four years, and then got into a bunch of law schools. (Full disclosure: I didn't end up going, ended up studying in another field instead. Will probably eventually try again. I'm going to be 104 over here, still planning to go to law school someday.) I don't know if I had to redo a full degree or if a few strong years would've gotten me in.

So, two points.

1. Your post only talks about your cGPA. If your GPA looks like "bunch of Fs, bunch of As", some schools drop some of your worst credits and/or only consider your best years. Look into that.

2. I understand that feeling of wanting to go right now. But for me, it was not as urgent as it felt. I survived getting my first law school acceptances at 27 rather than 24 - hell, I survived not accepting those offers. There are legitimate reasons around opportunity cost, etc., to want to go to law school sooner rather than later, and I don't want to minimize them. But if it's just the psychological block that I had and that I've seen hundreds of others experience, the oh my God I'm 22, I am so old, I cannot wait another minute feeling...you're not that old and you can wait another minute.

Best of luck.

[filicophyta]

Thanks all for the advice - everything is about as I expected. As for L2B2/ open studies, are they calculated as consecutive blocks of credits, or does courseload factor in? My transcript is so wild that I don't even know how to begin explaining it... But if, for instance, my last 15 credits done part-time over 2 semesters give me a 3.78, does this mean I only need 45 more credits in the same range, or will I have to do two full-time years of 60 credits for it to count?

[CleanHands]

3 minutes ago, filicophyta said:

Thanks all for the advice - everything is about as I expected. As for L2B2/ open studies, are they calculated as consecutive blocks of credits, or does courseload factor in? My transcript is so wild that I don't even know how to begin explaining it... But if, for instance, my last 15 credits done part-time over 2 semesters give me a 3.78, does this mean I only need 45 more credits in the same range, or will I have to do two full-time years of 60 credits for it to count?

To make it even more confusing and unclear: different schools calculate these things differently, unfortunately.

[qsizzle]

3 minutes ago, filicophyta said:

Thanks all for the advice - everything is about as I expected. As for L2B2/ open studies, are they calculated as consecutive blocks of credits, or does courseload factor in? My transcript is so wild that I don't even know how to begin explaining it... But if, for instance, my last 15 credits done part-time over 2 semesters give me a 3.78, does this mean I only need 45 more credits in the same range, or will I have to do two full-time years of 60 credits for it to count?

 

Usually schools want full time so about 12-15 credit a semester. It's to convey how you'd respond to the load of law school which is usually 6 courses at once. So full time would help your situation better.

[Kobe]

This might not be what you want to hear but here goes. Your cGPA will be held against you, no matter what you do there's no escaping it. With that said you can overcome it, you should think about going back to school, you can make a legitimate case about having the ability after having done that. Next you need to kill it there, like 3.8+. Then you need a great LSAT score, 170+ should be the aim, but depending on how your studies go high 160s may suffice (In my case I have a 168).

I had a 2.44 when I went back to school. 2.5 years later it is 3.11. I will have spent 6 years in undergrad, obviously this was not ideal but it was my path. I have a 3.9+ since going back (one A- still upsets me) and have gotten an offer from Queens. It's possible to overcome is my point in saying this.

I would probably start with trying to do really well on the LSAT as a 170+ will give you an outside chance even with completely awful gpa. If you can get a score like this you can apply while taking additional courses. The reason I would do it like this is you have a chance of getting in and saving a year of undergrad tuition and if you don't get in you just continue taking courses and apply in the following cycle.

It's doable, my 2.44 laughs at your 2.64

[NowOrNever]

17 hours ago, filicophyta said:

I graduated last summer with a 2.64 cumulative average and a messy and confusing transcript overall; I am nonetheless determined to go to law school as soon as possible, and not as a mature student. My first question is this: am I correct in assuming that, even if I apply access and score a top-percentage LSAT, the GPA is unworkable? 

If it is unworkable, I imagine my next step would be to apply to do a second undergrad. I've resolved the mental health issues that tanked my GPA and assume I'll be getting better grades. If my grades have improved significantly, how soon into my second degree could I present a competitive application? Could my improved grades from the end of the first degree be taken into account? What does my best possible timeline look like?

And finally, I would of course appreciate any other ideas and options I haven't thought of yet. Thanks!

OP - you may get into Manitoba with a 170+ LSAT score:

https://umanitoba.ca/explore/sites/explore/files/2020-12/law-bulletin.pdf

https://umanitoba.ca/faculties/graduate_studies/media/Canadian_GPA_Equivalencies.pdf

Edited February 11, 2022 by NowOrNever

[herewegoagain]

You can PM me. I had a terrible undergraduate GPA. Now in law school, got good/great grades, and landed a few interviews in 1L. If you want a career in law, it's worth pursuing, and you shouldn't let the low GPA get you down. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by herewegoagain

[goodisgood]

Can always go the mature student route too if all else fails and you really want to get into law school. The GPA req is somewhat relaxed, and gives you the opportunity to save some money and get some biz experience. 

[dimsum1]

17 minutes ago, goodisgood said:

Can always go the mature student route too if all else fails and you really want to get into law school. The GPA req is somewhat relaxed, and gives you the opportunity to save some money and get some biz experience. 

Is that really the case?  From looking at some school sites, it looks like mature student status means you don't require the 3 years of undergrad to be considered for school.  

I would be ecstatic if they do relax the GPA though, since I'm definitely a mature student and my cGPA is 2.91 from 18 years ago.

[VitalGiraffe]

I am very happy to be able to dissent from the majority here.

I was in your exact shoes 2 years ago. I was also told that I had pretty much no chance. I am happy to report that it is absolutely not true, you can go to law school as is, no need for a second undergrad. I was considering the same thing, but ultimately decided to focus 100% of my effort on the LSAT and the rest of my application. I have a similar GPA to yours with a confusing distribution of grades. I also had a medical reason for my low GPA as well. So far I have been accepted into Osgoode and 2 decent American schools (I applied to the US because I was convinced to the last moment I would not get into Canadian schools).

Here is what you should do:

1. Start studying for the LSAT, right now. This doesn't necessarily mean going out and buying a bunch of prep books or signing up for courses. You should take the June 2007 test under normal conditions to get a baseline score. This will tell you how much you will need to improve in each area. I strongly recommend you start reading books, any books that interest you, right away. I was not a reader before the LSAT, and this showed in my diagnostic. Give yourself at least 3-4 months to study. People here are right about the LSAT score you will need. Schools can overlook a bad GPA under the right circumstances, but you will still need to demonstrate that you're a capable person. I had a score of 170 when I got into Osgoode, I now have a score of 178 as my highest. The 178 is overkill, but I really had no reference point as to what someone like us needed, so I went overboard on the LSAT. You should be aiming for 170 though. I recommend taking an LSAT course.

2. Start getting your documentation in order. You had mental health issues that affected you? Get the papers to prove it ASAP. Show the timeline if you can. If there is a pattern (you started having these problems in 2nd semester 2nd year, for example) make sure the documentation states it was a problem at that time. You say it's been resolved which is great. That is something you should definitely talk about. If a school has a section to talk about disability/disadvanges/addendum then you should make it very clear the issue is resolved/managed.

2.5. Get your LOR sorted early. It was difficult for me to get an academic reference because of my poor grades. Be honest with your professors about what happened. I went to a professor who I did get relatively good grades with/had a good relationship with and they did agree. This still wasn't easy though. They admitted they couldn't write a great letter, that it would be average because most students that ask have stellar grades. Be prepared for profs to say 'no', or give milquetoast letters.

3. Make a killer personal statement. Yours will matter more than most. You might think you have nothing to talk about but you absolutely do. Lean heavily onto any ECs you might have. Talk about work if you've been doing something interesting. If you have to make your statement on the issues you had then do it, but I would avoid it if you can. You want to be seen as more than your condition. Show what other things you've done.

My inbox is always open.

[CleanHands]

3 minutes ago, VitalGiraffe said:

-Snip-

I think the only "dissent" here is about how realistic it is for people to achieve 170+ LSAT scores in order to compensate for low cGPAs. Everyone before you was saying someone with a 2.6 GPA was unlikely to get admitted to a Canadian law school, not that it was impossible. Given that your "dissent" hinges on achieving at least a 98th percentile LSAT I don't think that's much of a "dissent" at all. By definition, most people aren't able to do that.

[GGrievous]

16 minutes ago, VitalGiraffe said:

. Start studying for the LSAT, right now.

I have to agree with @CleanHands here. If LSAT score was a matter of amount of effort of length of studying, the score distribution would not be what it is. 
 

with a second degree you have more freedom to go for an area you’re good at, since any degree is accepted. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Barry

[VitalGiraffe]

2 hours ago, CleanHands said:

I think the only "dissent" here is about how realistic it is for people to achieve 170+ LSAT scores in order to compensate for low cGPAs. Everyone before you was saying someone with a 2.6 GPA was unlikely to get admitted to a Canadian law school, not that it was impossible. Given that your "dissent" hinges on achieving at least a 98th percentile LSAT I don't think that's much of a "dissent" at all. By definition, most people aren't able to do that

It's like you didn't even read what I wrote. I disagree that it's unlikely someone with a low GPA and high LSAT will get in. You and @qsizzle said the opposite.

1 hour ago, Barry said:

I have to agree with @CleanHands here. If LSAT score was a matter of amount of effort of length of studying, the score distribution would not be what it is. 
 

with a second degree you have more freedom to go for an area you’re good at, since any degree is accepted. 

I never said effort or length of studying was sufficient. I only said it would help.

I think getting another degree is not worth the effort, time or money. You will get a better bang for your buck in all 3 categories by investing them in the LSAT.

 

I'm outta this thread. People can DM me if they like.

[QueensDenning]

28 minutes ago, VitalGiraffe said:

I never said effort or length of studying was sufficient. I only said it would help.

I think getting another degree is not worth the effort, time or money. You will get a better bang for your buck in all 3 categories by investing them in the LSAT. 

Not with OP’s GPA. All the time, effort and money in the world can’t buy a 95th+ percentile LSAT score. Imagine investing all that time money and effort and still coming up with an LSAT under 170 (which would be the outcome for the vast majority of individuals). 
 

it’s much easier to get a 3.8+ GPA than it is to get a 170+ LSAT score. If your determined and committed enough, most people can achieve that GPA. The same doesn’t hold for the LSAT. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by QueensDenning

[GGrievous]

45 minutes ago, VitalGiraffe said:

It's like you didn't even read what I wrote. I disagree that it's unlikely someone with a low GPA and high LSAT will get in. You and @qsizzle said the opposite.

I never said effort or length of studying was sufficient. I only said it would help.

I think getting another degree is not worth the effort, time or money. You will get a better bang for your buck in all 3 categories by investing them in the LSAT.

 

I'm outta this thread. People can DM me if they like.

There’s no need to be upset. If OP has the aptitude to get an LSAT score like that then of course it’s easier to take 1 test than it is to do 2 years worth of courses. Just because you did it doesn’t mean anyone can. I think you know that.

[goodisgood]

4 hours ago, dimsum1 said:

Is that really the case?  From looking at some school sites, it looks like mature student status means you don't require the 3 years of undergrad to be considered for school.  

I would be ecstatic if they do relax the GPA though, since I'm definitely a mature student and my cGPA is 2.91 from 18 years ago.

From last cycle (and from what I've read of previous cycles), there are at least a handful of people like me who had 2.9~ GPAs and high 160s-low 170s LSATs who got into schools but in mature/access categories, it's part of why they exist. You're correct in that different schools may have different interpretations of Mature student so if you want to go that route I would make sure you fit those criteria. 

I just think it's important to note because obviously, a 2nd undergrad is going to cost money, then law school will cost more money, and if finances are a consideration for you, it may railroad you into certain areas of law or increase pressure on you vs the mature route. 

[dimsum1]

2 hours ago, goodisgood said:

From last cycle (and from what I've read of previous cycles), there are at least a handful of people like me who had 2.9~ GPAs and high 160s-low 170s LSATs who got into schools but in mature/access categories, it's part of why they exist. 

haha, with my 158 I think I'll expect some rejection letters instead  😄

I have a pretty unique work experience that would be interesting for law, but I don't know if that's enough to offset those grades and LSAT

[easttowest]

I was waitlisted as a regular applicant with a 2.5 and 171. I was accepted early in the cycle by two schools as a mature applicant. So it’s not impossible but it’s not easy. 

[dimsum1]

OP (and others waiting) - I just got accepted to Ottawa with a 2.91 and 158 as a Mature student.  

So, understanding that it's a data point of 1 here, it's totally possible to have garbage cGPA and still be admitted.

Best of luck to those still waiting!

[Crispy Boi]

Came here to chime in alongside my dimsum buddy ^ because I also got accepted at Ottawa despite a horrible time in undergrad - cgpa 2.53 and a 165 LSAT.

@filicophyta, I think whether or not you need to go back to school (if law school is your ultimate goal) depends on your personal situation. Do you have good documentation backing up your mental health issues in undergrad? Are you close with professors who can speak to your academic abilities despite your grades? Were your grades an upward trend towards the second half of your undergrad?

My OLSAS gpa for my first degree is literally a 1.7. Absolute nightmare number. While I didn't know that I was going to be applying to law school when I went in to my second bachelor's, I'm really glad I did one. I personally didn't find a second bachelor's to be too onerous of a commitment - for me, I got nearly a full 2 years worth of transfer credits to fill all of my electives, and only needed to take required courses. I did it part time while I worked, so it has taken me just about 3 years to do a full second degree.

Including my fall 2021 grades, Ottawa had 20 classes (or, 2 full time years) from my second degree to look at. I did both of my degrees nearly entirely part time, so that wasn't an issue in my case. I don't know what the case is for your ECs and personal statement, but helping me out, I had a strong personal statement, great references, and a ton of work and volunteer experience.

Perhaps a possible alternative to a second bachelor's would be some sort of post-grad certificate? There's a lot of 1 year grad programs at colleges where you could get a bit more academic experience. Wouldn't change your cgpa, since that's only affected by undergrad study, but they still look at your grades in graduate programs, and it could add to your application.

Feel free to DM me if you have questions about doing a second bachelor's or anything, since I followed a path that sounds pretty similar to what you're considering. There was only a 1 year gap between my degrees, so I was on a similar timeline as you are now too.