Studying in a different province from where you want to practice

[RWC]

First off, I'm not sure if I should be posting this in another forum/section (any admins please feel free to move it if this isn't the best spot).

I know similar questions have been asked a few times, but I was hoping for some input on how big the drawbacks are of going to law school in a different province from where one would like to practice.

For context, I 100% want to work in Ontario, and I've been accepted to multiple Ontario schools. However, I've also gotten in to UofA and there is a more than likely chance I will end up studying there for personal reasons. I know that its ideal to go to school in the same province you want to end up in (OCIs, ease of networking etc), but I was wondering how much of a disadvantage I would be giving myself if I decided to go to UofA. Basically, is the main part of the disadvantage the fact that I would have to go further out of my way/put in a greater effort to land interviews at Ontario firms, or would it be greater in the sense that firms will prefer students from Ontario schools (all else ~equal) or that they just won't consider someone from UofA the same way they would a student from Ontario?

At this point I'm most interested in and hoping to go into IP and patent law, but I'm obviously not 100% set on that and want to get an idea of the different areas I might like to practice in. 

I'd really appreciate anyone's input, especially those who might have had similar paths themselves. Thanks!

[Darth Vader]

Unfortunately, U of A doesn't have the same national reputation that you would get from attending a school like U of T, UBC, Osgoode, and McGill. There isn't much of an issue in going to law school in a different province than the one you want to practice in... if you attended a highly ranked school. U of A though is very much a regional school. I see very few U of A grads in Ontario and even less so at firms that do OCIs in Toronto. It would be easier for you to do OCIs in Alberta, work in Big law/IP there, and then lateral to Ontario after you are called.

Are you originally from Ontario? That would make it easier to convince employers that you are not a flight risk either.

Why would Toronto OCI employers have to look to U of A when they have U of T, Osgoode, Western, Queen's, Ottawa, Ryerson, Windsor, McGill, UBC, and Dalhousie students to choose from? You can go through the Ultra Vires reports for the last couple years and see if your school is represented there.

It seems like you want to work in Big law. If Toronto Big law is your goal, you need to really re-think whether U of A is the right choice here. It's fine to go there if you just wanted to aim for less competitive jobs in Ontario, but not for Big law and IP boutiques. Take the time to go through the firm profiles and see just how many U of A grads are working there.

[RWC]

Thanks so much for the in-depth reply @Darth Vader.

1 hour ago, Darth Vader said:

Why would Toronto OCI employers have to look to U of A when they have U of T, Osgoode, Western, Queen's, Ottawa, Ryerson, Windsor, McGill, UBC, and Dalhousie students to choose from?

I was a bit confused by this part though. Are you basically implying that Toronto OCI employers are less likely to look to UofA since most students there end up staying in western Canada (and likewise Ontario students often stay in Ontario), or that UofA would have less "prestige" (for lack of a better word) compared to those other schools and therefore students from there would be overall less competitive? 

I am originally from Ontario which is why I want to end up back there after law school. The whole part of cross-province situation that I'm unclear about is whether Ontario employers look down on applicants from a school like UofA (again, probably not the greatest wording but I'm sure you get the idea), or if there are just barely any UofA students that actually want to and end up working in Ontario and that's why you refer to employers not "looking to UofA". It appears I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that it has a similar reputation to schools like Ottawa, Western, Queen's etc. I guess your point to UofA being a regional school touched on it, but does UofA have that similar sort of reputation only regionally/in western Canada then?

Reading this over I realized I posed a few almost open-ended questions, so please don't feel obligated to reply to each point or anything like that. Thanks again so much for taking the time to give that comprehensive advice!

[Lilbb19]

why in gods name would you want to live in Edmonton when you want to practice in Ontario. Edmonton is horrendous. 1000000% study in Ontario 

[mjslava]

6 minutes ago, Lilbb19 said:

why in gods name would you want to live in Edmonton when you want to practice in Ontario. Edmonton is horrendous. 1000000% study in Ontario 

How many indoor roller coasters does Ontario have? That’s what I thought. Alberta 1 - Ontario 6.

[CleanHands]

At least Edmontonians don't have to incessantly bitch on these forums about how unaffordable their city is even for lawyers, unlike those from certain parts of Ontario... 😛

Edited February 15, 2022 by CleanHands

[jakethelegalsnake]

40 minutes ago, Lilbb19 said:

why in gods name would you want to live in Edmonton when you want to practice in Ontario. Edmonton is horrendous. 1000000% study in Ontario 

It's really not that bad 

[Darth Vader]

1 hour ago, RWC said:

Thanks so much for the in-depth reply @Darth Vader.

I was a bit confused by this part though. Are you basically implying that Toronto OCI employers are less likely to look to UofA since most students there end up staying in western Canada (and likewise Ontario students often stay in Ontario), or that UofA would have less "prestige" (for lack of a better word) compared to those other schools and therefore students from there would be overall less competitive? 

I am originally from Ontario which is why I want to end up back there after law school. The whole part of cross-province situation that I'm unclear about is whether Ontario employers look down on applicants from a school like UofA (again, probably not the greatest wording but I'm sure you get the idea), or if there are just barely any UofA students that actually want to and end up working in Ontario and that's why you refer to employers not "looking to UofA". It appears I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that it has a similar reputation to schools like Ottawa, Western, Queen's etc. I guess your point to UofA being a regional school touched on it, but does UofA have that similar sort of reputation only regionally/in western Canada then?

Reading this over I realized I posed a few almost open-ended questions, so please don't feel obligated to reply to each point or anything like that. Thanks again so much for taking the time to give that comprehensive advice!

I'll be blunt then. I don't know what kind of reputation Ottawa, Western, and Queen's have outside of Ontario. I've seen many out of province students go to Queen's and Ottawa and return to their home province after. In Ontario, U of A does not have a strong reputation. Not like how some Ontario law schools and UBC, UVic, McGill,  Dalhousie, and Université de Montréal does. U of A, Calgary, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and TRU are viewed pretty similar here. I know a few people from the latter schools that did the Ryerson LPP just to break into the Ontario legal market. Now this isn't a sign of a bad school or a bad candidate, but it just means that finding an OCI/articling position here may be difficult with a U of A degree.

To be even more blunt, there is somewhat of a stigma that if you are an Ontario resident attending a school like U of A, Calgary, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, or TRU, and plan to practice law in Ontario, then it is because you could not get into most of the law schools in Ontario. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Darth Vader

[CheeseToast]

UofA has a reputation identical to Western/Queens/Ottawa/Dal, @Darth Vader strikes me as full of shit. It’s weird being an OOP applicant anywhere.

[Darth Vader]

19 minutes ago, CheeseToast said:

UofA has a reputation identical to Western/Queens/Ottawa/Dal, @Darth Vader strikes me as full of shit. It’s weird being an OOP applicant anywhere.

Don't take this the wrong way, but seeing as how you are a 1L student yourself, how can you call me full of shit when I've actually practiced in the field and been part of hiring processes? P.S. I work in Toronto where OP is hoping to work. 

OP is not asking about U of A's reputation generally, but rather how it compares to Western, Queen's, Ottawa, and Dal IN ONTARIO - specifically with regards to OCIs and articling. 

This person wants to work in Toronto Big law/IP boutiques. We do them absolutely no favours by sugarcoating it for them. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Darth Vader

[jakethelegalsnake]

1 hour ago, Darth Vader said:

To be even more blunt, there is somewhat of a stigma that if you are an Ontario resident attending a school like U of A, Calgary, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, or TRU, and plan to practice law in Ontario, then it is because you could not get into most of the law schools in Ontario. 

That's so weird because it seems U of A is harder to get into than almost every Ontario law school.

[Pendragon]

9 minutes ago, jakethelegalsnake said:

That's so weird because it seems U of A is harder to get into than almost every Ontario law school.

Doesn't Alberta only look at your most recent 60 credits and includes grades taken after the completion of your undergraduate degree in its GPA calculation? This is not harder to get than Best 3 years in the case of U of T or cGPA in the case of Osgoode and Ottawa. Windsor and Lakehead are pretty holistic so it's difficult to say what is competitive there, since U of T-level stats can get you rejected from Windsor. If Alberta does count graduate degree grades, then this makes it even easier to get in since most people get A's in their master's degree programs.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Pendragon

[AHappyLawyer]

If you're in an Ontario, you'll probably do the Toronto firm sponsored IP moots, take the IP/trademark classes taught by adjunct faculty at Toronto IP firms, and do IP clinics sponsored and supervised by the small number of active IP firms in Toronto that hire students: https://www.iposgoode.ca/innovation-clinic/about/

If you're in Alberta, you don't get any of these opportunities. Unless you have remarkable grades or some other factors (maybe you clerk at Federal Court with an IP slant or something), it's just a disadvantage. Firms don't give a hoot how difficult the school was to get into for fields like IP, Tax, Employment. It's a lot more based on demonstrated interest. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by AHappyLawyer

[jakethelegalsnake]

52 minutes ago, Pendragon said:

Doesn't Alberta only look at your most recent 60 credits and includes grades taken after the completion of your undergraduate degree in its GPA calculation? This is not harder to get than Best 3 years in the case of U of T or cGPA in the case of Osgoode and Ottawa. Windsor and Lakehead are pretty holistic so it's difficult to say what is competitive there, since U of T-level stats can get you rejected from Windsor. If Alberta does count graduate degree grades, then this makes it even easier to get in since most people get A's in their master's degree programs.

Definitely not harder to get into than U of T. Not sure if you can claim Ottawa or Osgoode are harder to get into simply because they look at cGPA instead of L2 while ignoring actual stats. Although I wouldn't be surprised if Osgoode is harder to get into as well, hence why I said "almost every." I am pretty confident, however, that U of A is harder to get into by most metrics than Windsor or Lakehead. 

This is getting a little off-track though lol. They're all good schools, in the end. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by jakethelegalsnake

[Pendragon]

5 minutes ago, jakethelegalsnake said:

Definitely not harder to get into than U of T. Not sure if you can claim Ottawa or Osgoode are harder to get into simply because they look at cGPA instead of L2 while ignoring actual stats. Although I wouldn't be surprised if Osgoode is harder to get into as well, hence why I said "almost every." I am pretty confident, however, that U of A is harder to get into by most metrics than Windsor or Lakehead. 

 

What stats am I ignoring? Anyone can pad their last 2 years GPA. Upper year courses are typically easier to get grades in than first and second year courses. If you don't maintain at least a B average in a master's program, you can't even graduate. Most people get straight A's in them. In comparison, it is difficult to recover from a low cGPA if you mess up in even a few courses in your first year itself. 

As for the LSAT, it is a very learnable test. One can argue over whether a standardized test or 4 or more years of consistent performance is harder to achieve. But it's been discussed elsewhere. And for this thread it doesn't matter. I think OP got the answers they were looking for. For their career goals, they should just go to a school in Ontario. 

[WyattDerp]

6 hours ago, RWC said:

I know similar questions have been asked a few times, but I was hoping for some input on how big the drawbacks are of going to law school in a different province from where one would like to practice.

The biggest issue you will face with picking UofA is the fact that Toronto OCIs aren't targeted at schools west of Thunder Bay. This means that the hiring managers aren't familiar with the grading schemes, there aren't a ton of alumni to vouch for you and they don't have a neat little box to put you in. While it seems minor, it can be a huge challenge trying to break into that market as a summer/articling student. However, it's relatively easy to move from big law shops between provinces once you have a year or two of experience (which is probably your better option).

In my experience, UofA produces significantly stronger graduates then the bulk of Ontario schools (other than UToronto and Osgoode). The fact that it's also less than half the price of UToronto shouldn't be discounted as its a significant financial advantage. Thats all to say that you may want to consider taking a role in a western shop first and moving over when you have a year or two of experience.

 

[CheeseToast]

8 hours ago, Darth Vader said:

Don't take this the wrong way, but seeing as how you are a 1L student yourself, how can you call me full of shit when I've actually practiced in the field and been part of hiring processes? P.S. I work in Toronto where OP is hoping to work. 

OP is not asking about U of A's reputation generally, but rather how it compares to Western, Queen's, Ottawa, and Dal IN ONTARIO - specifically with regards to OCIs and articling. 

This person wants to work in Toronto Big law/IP boutiques. We do them absolutely no favours by sugarcoating it for them. 

UofA doesn’t have a “worse” rep in TO just as Western doesn’t have a “worse” rep in Calgary. You’ll be a black sheep as an OOP applicant no matter what but your school won’t prejudice your application.

[RWC]

8 hours ago, WyattDerp said:

However, it's relatively easy to move from big law shops between provinces once you have a year or two of experience (which is probably your better option).

Thanks a bunch for the input! (and to everyone else as well, all the discussion points are actually very helpful). I know you might not be able to give a concrete answer, but how easy is "relatively easy"? For example, if I did gain only one or two years of experience out west, would I have a very good chance (for the sake of this lets say >90%) of securing a job at an Ontario shop if I applied to more than a few of them (assuming I've done well enough to build a fairly strong rapport while there)?

[AHappyLawyer]

10 hours ago, RWC said:

Thanks a bunch for the input! (and to everyone else as well, all the discussion points are actually very helpful). I know you might not be able to give a concrete answer, but how easy is "relatively easy"? For example, if I did gain only one or two years of experience out west, would I have a very good chance (for the sake of this lets say >90%) of securing a job at an Ontario shop if I applied to more than a few of them (assuming I've done well enough to build a fairly strong rapport while there)?

Too many variables for anyone to put a % on it. Certain practices travel better. There will always be corporate roles and people are always playing musical chairs. IP - there are just fewer spaces in general. Also look at this Covid year - firms froze hiring and then when things were busy turned up the spigot for the most fiery hiring year in a while.

You're at a fork in the road and you can only walk down one path. UofA is a plenty good school and the school name won't hold you back. I would focus on getting into a practice area you enjoy, rather than based on how well it travels. Also network with UofA grads in Ontario (if that ends up being your choice). On balance, it'll be harder to end up in Ontario versus a school that is already in Ontario....however, the rest is on you. 

[RWC]

On 2/15/2022 at 8:48 PM, AHappyLawyer said:

Too many variables for anyone to put a % on it. Certain practices travel better. There will always be corporate roles and people are always playing musical chairs. IP - there are just fewer spaces in general. Also look at this Covid year - firms froze hiring and then when things were busy turned up the spigot for the most fiery hiring year in a while.

You're at a fork in the road and you can only walk down one path. UofA is a plenty good school and the school name won't hold you back. I would focus on getting into a practice area you enjoy, rather than based on how well it travels. Also network with UofA grads in Ontario (if that ends up being your choice). On balance, it'll be harder to end up in Ontario versus a school that is already in Ontario....however, the rest is on you. 

All makes sense, I really appreciate the insight and advice. Thanks a ton everyone else for all the help as well!

Edited February 17, 2022 by RWC