Recommendations for Second Choice Schools

[mjslava]

I want to preface this by apologizing for the long post, but I'm someone that likes to plan ahead as much as possible and consider all options thoroughly.

Here's my situation. I am a mature student who only applied to UVIC this past cycle. I feel like I have a solid chance of acceptance (913 index score; historically, auto-admission scores fall within the 905-915+ range). So I am confident of my chances but in the event that I am not accepted, I want to choose the next best option next cycle. I have some time this summer to travel and would like to visit the city of the school that best fits my criteria to get a feel for it and look for neighbourhoods since I have two young kids.

I'm fortunate that my GPA and LSAT are competitive enough to fall within the "auto-admission" range of many schools (3.3 cGPA; 3.7-8 L2, 169), including U of Calgary, Alberta, Manitoba, Queen's, and Western (of course, I know that nothing is guaranteed).

And a decent chance of getting into Osgoode, Dalhousie, and Ottawa.

Ideally, I want to work in either Victoria or Vancouver after Law School but wouldn't rule out other areas of the country. I know it's best to go to school where you want to work, but sometimes that's not possible. TRU is not an option for me. I'm open to all areas of law, but might prefer corporate, business, IP, entertainment, and criminal.

Outside of UofT, McGill, UBC, and UVIC, which school has enough of a national reach to give me the best chance of being hired in BC? 

Thanks for any input.

[QueensDenning]

Osgoode followed by Queen’s and Western I would think. 

[Boris]

This might also help:

http://ultravires.ca/2021/11/vancouver-2022-2l-summer-recruitment-numbers/

[Snax]

I’d say Osgoode would be your best bet.  Beyond that, I imagine UAlberta and Calgary wouldn’t be bad choices, as a fair number of BC residents go to those schools with intentions of going back. 
 

outside of those three, there’s probably a group of schools including queen’s, western, Ottawa, and Dal that would give you a roughly even chance of going back to BC. For what it’s worth (and it’s not worth all that much because the sample size is really small), everyone I know at Western that wanted to get a job in BC were able to do so, but I imagine those people would have been able to do so if they went to any of the other schools I mentioned along with western. 

[Philosophy]

If you go to Osgoode, you should choose where you live really carefully. 

York University is situated in the Jane / Finch area, which is generally known as a high crime neighborhood. 

I personally would not take two young kids anywhere near there, if I had the choice. 

[Eatable Bran]

3 hours ago, Boris said:

This might also help:

http://ultravires.ca/2021/11/vancouver-2022-2l-summer-recruitment-numbers/

These won’t be terribly accurate, UV excels at covering the Toronto recruit, but definitely tends to miss data for the Calgary and Vancouver recruit - which makes sense, with them being based in Toronto. They certainly missed data on the 1L Calgary recruit last year.

1 hour ago, Snax said:

-snip-

Echoing @Snax point, Osgoode  followed by U of A and UCalgary. There’s no need to go all the way to Ontario to study at Queens/Western when you can get a comparable education much closer to where you want to work.

People tend to forget that schools outside of Ontario exist, provide a great legal education, and in many instances are better set-up to connect students to the job markets out west.  Both Alberta schools will have better support from the career office for the Vancouver recruit, and a larger student body from BC than any Ontario schools. Not to mention it’s a heck of a lot more convenient if interviews ever require us to be in-person again. 

Barring an acceptance from your top choices, I would seriously consider a school in Alberta. Lastly, Calgary is a really great place to be a kid; there’s tons of outdoors space, lots of activities, and the cost of living is low (leaving more leftover to save for the future). 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Eatable Bran

[CleanHands]

19 minutes ago, Eatable Bran said:

Echoing @Snax point, Osgoode  followed by U of A and UCalgary. There’s no need to go all the way to Ontario to study at Queens/Western when you can get a comparable education much closer to where you want to work.

People tend to forget that schools outside of Ontario exist, provide a great legal education, and in many instances are better set-up to connect students to the job markets out west.  Both Alberta schools will have better support from the career office for the Vancouver recruit, and a larger student body from BC than any Ontario schools. Not to mention it’s a heck of a lot more convenient if interviews ever require us to be in-person again. 

Way cheaper tuition cost too. There's no reason to go to Western or Queen's instead of UofA or UofC if one wants to work in BC.

Edited February 16, 2022 by CleanHands

[mjslava]

I appreciate the replies and advice, everyone. Being in a city is far more desirable for my family, so it's good to hear that Calgary, Edmonton, and York are likely the next best choices.

 

2 hours ago, Philosophy said:

If you go to Osgoode, you should choose where you live really carefully. 

York University is situated in the Jane / Finch area, which is generally known as a high crime neighborhood. 

I personally would not take two young kids anywhere near there, if I had the choice. 

I was raised on the mean streets of Surrey. Makes Jane and Finch look like Rodeo Drive. 

[PulpFiction]

16 minutes ago, mjslava said:

I appreciate the replies and advice, everyone. Being in a city is far more desirable for my family, so it's good to hear that Calgary, Edmonton, and York are likely the next best choices.

 

I was raised on the mean streets of Surrey. Makes Jane and Finch look like Rodeo Drive. 

You better believe those JnF dudes aren't messing with a proper Jack. You're good to go. 

[Pendragon]

4 hours ago, Boris said:

This might also help:

http://ultravires.ca/2021/11/vancouver-2022-2l-summer-recruitment-numbers/

I'm curious as to why Queen's placed better than Alberta and the same as Calgary in this recruit. Anyone have any further information?

[BlockedQuebecois]

12 minutes ago, Pendragon said:

I'm curious as to why Queen's placed better than Alberta and the same as Calgary in this recruit. Anyone have any further information?

Well as a start, Calgary only has ~128 students while Alberta has ~185, contrasted with ~208 for Queens. So as a percentage of the class, Calgary nearly doubled Queens.

But the two other reason are likely:

1. Alberta students have two strong legal markets to apply to in-province. In contrast, Queens students who want to work in big law have to apply to Toronto, and if they aren’t successful they need to consider out of province options; and 
2. Queens (and Ontario schools generally) draw a lot of BC residents who would like to practice in BC but don’t go to a BC school for whatever reason. Alberta and Calgary generally seem to only draw BC residents who don’t get into a BC school. That’s also why a school like Dalhousie does well despite being on the opposite side of the country. 

[Disbarred]

8 hours ago, Philosophy said:

If you go to Osgoode, you should choose where you live really carefully. 

York University is situated in the Jane / Finch area, which is generally known as a high crime neighborhood. 

I personally would not take two young kids anywhere near there, if I had the choice. 

Please don’t put much weight into this. Osgoode is on the subway line, every single one of my friends lives comfortably downtown. I couldn’t imagine declining on the false pretence that the location is make or break.

Taking a 40 minute subway to live in downtown Toronto > taking a 15 minute bus to school and living in London, and it’s not close 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Disbarred

[BlockedQuebecois]

Jane & Finch has a relatively high crime rate, and I probably wouldn't choose to raise my kids there, but it's not like it's the type of area you can never bring your child or it is wildly out of line with Toronto's general crime rates. If you live in the area bounded by Front Street, the DVP, Bathurst and Bloor (i.e. Toronto proper), you probably live in a neighbourhood with broadly similar crime rates.

The reason Jane & Finch gets a worse rap than Trinity-Bellwoods (an area with a markedly higher murder rate than the average of the three neighbourhoods that meet at Jane and Finch) or Cabbagetown (an area with a slightly higher assault rate) is that Jane & Finch is ~80% minority and relatively poor, while Trinity-Bellwoods and Cabbagetown are ~70% white and relatively wealthy. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by BlockedQuebecois

[CheeseToast]

I would probably just stay out west but if you're considering Oz I think you should consider Dal as well. It's widely considered to be the national school and Halifax is sweet. I know a few young parents and people from vancouver more generally and most people love it here.

Edit: forgot to mention, with those stats you would probably get a bunch of $$$ from the school as well. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by CheeseToast

[epeeist]

@BlockedQuebecois My building had a murder years before I moved in (which as tragic as it was, made the building safer, because they moved to a higher level of security with 24-hour security and concierge etc.). A shooting (I think a killing not just a shooting) a few years ago on the street outside. A suicide (jumper). Arrest of a resident forcing a minor into prostitution in the building. Muggings near the building. And that's just what I know of from living in the building and discussions about e.g. changes to security practices or updates to residents/owners about what's going on. I'm sure lots more has happened. If I didn't live in the building, given how vaguely (or not at all) some of these things were discussed including the shooting which got the most "news" coverage (if I didn't know where it happened, I might have been unable to figure it out from the story...), I'd never know (actually, having a buyer's agent when I purchased they did tell me about the murder in the parking garage).

Oh, and I live in downtown Toronto on Bay Street in a "good" area. I like it, I feel comfortable and safe, the chances of anything happening on an individual level are small, and I expect it's probably similarly safe in the Jane-Finch area.

Now, there may be other reasons not to want to live in a particular area, but it's not like there's a constant threat of roving bands of marauders.

With one important caveat to our perspectives on places being safe: we're both male. I'm intellectually aware (i.e. limited knowledge, I know that I don't know everything...) that spaces that are "safe" for men may not be for women. I don't feel the need in a bar to keep a napkin over my drink or bring it with me to the washroom; but I'm sure that I've been to bars or restaurants, and felt safe there, but some women might rationally feel less safe in that environment and feel the need to take precautions and/or be unable to relax fully.

[NowOrNever]

21 hours ago, mjslava said:

I have some time this summer to travel and would like to visit the city of the school that best fits my criteria to get a feel for it and look for neighbourhoods since I have two young kids.

Ideally, I want to work in either Victoria or Vancouver after Law School but wouldn't rule out other areas of the country. I know it's best to go to school where you want to work, but sometimes that's not possible. TRU is not an option for me.

Not sure why TRU is not an option for you if you want to work in Vancouver - hard to find a job in Vancouver from TRU?

I just did a little search and easily I found that TRU law school graduates landed jobs in the 5 Biggest Canadian Law Firms: 

Borden Ladner Gervais LLP:
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/fahmadlaw

Gowling Lafleur Henderson LLP:
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/nick-james-597789124

Fasken LLP:
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/paige-a-mueller

Norton Rose Fulbright LLP:
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/lou-mcleod-15a2333b

Blake, Cassels & Graydon LLP:
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/albert-zhang

In addition, Kamloops is a safe and nice place for your two young kids.

[mjslava]

2 hours ago, NowOrNever said:

Not sure why TRU is not an option for you if you want to work in Vancouver - hard to find a job in Vancouver from TRU?

In addition, Kamloops is a safe and nice place for your two young kids.

I’m sure it’s a great school, but personal/familial conditions prevent me from going to Kamloops. 

[Pendragon]

2 hours ago, NowOrNever said:

Not sure why TRU is not an option for you if you want to work in Vancouver - hard to find a job in Vancouver from TRU?

I just did a little search and easily I found that TRU law school graduates landed jobs in the 5 Biggest Canadian Law Firms: 

Borden Ladner Gervais LLP:
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/fahmadlaw

Gowling Lafleur Henderson LLP:
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/nick-james-597789124

Fasken LLP:
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/paige-a-mueller

Norton Rose Fulbright LLP:
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/lou-mcleod-15a2333b

Blake, Cassels & Graydon LLP:
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/albert-zhang

In addition, Kamloops is a safe and nice place for your two young kids.

You are correct but it is pretty clear from OP's posts that they are only considering the most reputable law schools with a national reach. TRU places well in Vancouver because of its proximity but no one considers it to be a reputable school. And OP also stated that they are open to living and working in other cities. 

[NowOrNever]

1 hour ago, mjslava said:

I’m sure it’s a great school, but personal/familial conditions prevent me from going to Kamloops. 

I see.

Good luck!

[NowOrNever]

1 hour ago, Pendragon said:

You are correct but it is pretty clear from OP's posts that they are only considering the most reputable law schools with a national reach. TRU places well in Vancouver because of its proximity but no one considers it to be a reputable school. And OP also stated that they are open to living and working in other cities. 

Understood.

I guess it depends.

You may get into a national top law firm from a less reputable law school like TRU and on the other hand you may not get into any national top law firms from the most reputable law schools with a national reach.

[Philosophy]

22 hours ago, mjslava said:

I appreciate the replies and advice, everyone. Being in a city is far more desirable for my family, so it's good to hear that Calgary, Edmonton, and York are likely the next best choices.

 

I was raised on the mean streets of Surrey. Makes Jane and Finch look like Rodeo Drive. 

Haha, I spent alot of time in Surrey growing up as well. Reminds me of the time my friends got mugged at King George Station... good times.

[Philosophy]

17 hours ago, Disbarred said:

Please don’t put much weight into this. Osgoode is on the subway line, every single one of my friends lives comfortably downtown. I couldn’t imagine declining on the false pretence that the location is make or break.

Taking a 40 minute subway to live in downtown Toronto > taking a 15 minute bus to school and living in London, and it’s not close 

Thanks for strengthening my point by showing that zero of your friends live in close proximity to the school and Jane/Finch! 

I didn't tell OP to decline based on location, I told them that they should choose carefully where to live if they choose to attend given that they have two young children. 

[mjslava]

5 minutes ago, Philosophy said:

Haha, I spent alot of time in Surrey growing up as well. Reminds me of the time my friends got mugged at King George Station... good times.

Ok that wasn't me. I performed most of my shenanigans around Gateway. 

[Darth Vader]

48 minutes ago, Philosophy said:

Thanks for strengthening my point by showing that zero of your friends live in close proximity to the school and Jane/Finch! 

I didn't tell OP to decline based on location, I told them that they should choose carefully where to live if they choose to attend given that they have two young children. 

Most people who go to York/Osgoode don't live around Jane & Finch though. Osgoode students live in the York and Osgoode residences and some people may live in the York Village. To get to Jane & Finch you have to walk like 40 minutes. The campus is pretty safe most of the time unless you choose to walk around York Village and beyond that in the late evenings and nighttime. I think you are unnecessarily scaring the OP by implying that York is in the Jane & Finch neighbourhood, when York is really in the Keele and Finch neighbourhood. You can go all three years at Osgoode without stepping foot in the Jane & Finch area. Unless someone from Jane & Finch has some serious business to get done at York or is plain stupid, most people are not going to bus or drive down from there and pay for parking, just to stir things up on a university campus that has a lot of cameras and security personnel. The most I've seen are sketchy characters at night walking around the York Village area and sometimes the York University campus, but the security usually deals with them or they leave right away when they see the security. 

[Philosophy]

15 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

Most people who go to York/Osgoode don't live around Jane & Finch though. Osgoode students live in the York and Osgoode residences and some people may live in the York Village. To get to Jane & Finch you have to walk like 40 minutes. The campus is pretty safe most of the time unless you choose to walk around York Village and beyond that in the late evenings and nighttime. I think you are unnecessarily scaring the OP by implying that York is in the Jane & Finch neighbourhood, when York is really in the Keele and Finch neighbourhood. You can go all three years at Osgoode without stepping foot in the Jane & Finch area. Unless someone from Jane & Finch has some serious business to get done at York or is plain stupid, most people are not going to bus or drive down from there and pay for parking, just to stir things up on a university campus that has a lot of cameras and security personnel. The most I've seen are sketchy characters at night walking around the York Village area and sometimes the York University campus, but the security usually deals with them or they leave right away when they see the security. 

For sure. I didn't mean to scare OP (they're from surrey so its all good anyway)

I was just taking into consideration most heavily the part where they talked about their children and having a good environment for them.