Advice greatly appreciated! (cGPA: 2.88), (L2: 2.88), (B3: 3.39), (LSAT: TBD)

[mynamehere.esq]

Hi there, I'm currently studying for the LSAT. I did very well in my undergraduate program (in the beginning). I was on the President's List and Honours List multiple times. At one point my GPA was 4.25 (on the 4.3 scale). However, my mother became incredibly ill about halfway through my degree and believe it or not she was actually turned away from our Canadian health care system because they couldn't help her. This, led my family to seek treatment for her in the US. During this time she made me promise her not to take any time off of school because understandably she wanted me to have something to focus on and keep me busy aside from worrying about her 24/7. But, that obviously didn't turn out so well. I kept my promise by staying enrolled....but, I truly couldn't cope with school. I continued to withdrawal from my courses and there were a few courses that I actually forgot to withdrawal from in time because I was so caught up with my mother. The courses I forgot to withdrawal from resulted in me failing those classes and receiving an F on my transcript. Fast forwarding a bit, once my mother was more stable after her surgery I was able to refocus on school and finally complete what felt like (and was) the forever and never ending degree. In my final few terms I managed to bring my grades back up to B+'s, A's and A+'s. However, I wasn't able to bring my overall GPA back up to where it originally was. I'm incredibly concerned about applying for law school... because of how bad my transcript looks and the likelihood of being classified as a "splitter" considering if I achieve a great score on the LSAT. I've been putting an immense amount of pressure on myself with studying in order to do well on the LSAT. I feel terrible about how my grades turned out, but if I had to go through this again, I would have done the same thing. Family is the most important! I'd be grateful for any and all input and advice.

Thank you in advance for your help! 🙂      

Once I was able to convert my grades from the 4.3 Grading Scale to the 4.0 using https://lawapplicants.ca

Cumulative GPA (cGPA):  2.88

Last Two Years GPA:  (L2) 2.88

Best Three Years GPA:  (B3) 3.39

Law School Admissions Test (LSAT):    TBD  

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by mynamehere.esq

[mj1995]

Your L2 is too low. My advice is to improve it whether or not thats what you want to hear even if you score 165+ that L2 is going to be a big problem. I am sorry that happened to you and family is very important. I had similar circumstances I had a sick father for majority of my undergraduate degree and he is my only parent so taking care of him while holding a part time job and a full time course load was difficult. Many applicants on here are full time parents who were able to manage parenting and studying for the LSAT/upgrading. I get life is hard but it is hard for a lot of people. If going to law school is important to you, you'll find your way like many applicants on here have. 

I didn't get it on the first try either my L2 was a 3.4 and I went back to upgrade. I know this is not what you want to hear but you need to improve your GPA either first or after the LSAT. I understand compelling circumstances and I do not mean this to be harsh by any means but you are not going to be the only one who may write about difficult circumstances in their application. My first time applying with an L2 higher then yours and compelling circumstances I got denied from every school I applied for. Just my take/advice, whatever you choose to do I wish you the best. 

Don't punish yourself for the past, you can't go back. Be realistic in the fact that you may have to revisit courses to make yourself a competitive and successful applicant. I wish I was my first time applying it would have saved me time and stress. Otherwise you may want to consider attending law school abroad if this is not a viable option for you some law schools in Europe/UK don't require an LSAT. You may want to look into this as well. 

Edited February 27, 2022 by mj1995

[CleanHands]

Write this LSAT under realistic, timed conditions as a diagnostic: https://cache.careers360.mobi/media/uploads/froala_editor/files/LSAT-practice-set.pdf

If you are one of those people who can get a 99th percentile LSAT with minimal effort (meaning something like a 167/95th percentile as a diagnostic), that will be a very different discussion than if you are an average LSAT writer who maybe, possibly, could get a great score with tons of effort and practice and investment.

But this really isn't a conversation that's going to be productive or useful until you know whether you have aptitude for the LSAT.

Edited February 27, 2022 by CleanHands

[mj1995]

14 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

Write this LSAT under realistic, timed conditions as a diagnostic: https://cache.careers360.mobi/media/uploads/froala_editor/files/LSAT-practice-set.pdf

If you are one of those people who can get a 99th percentile LSAT with minimal effort (meaning something like a 167/95th percentile as a diagnostic), that will be a very different discussion than if you are an average LSAT writer who maybe, possibly, could get a great score with tons of effort and practice and investment.

But this really isn't a conversation that's going to be productive or useful until you know whether you have aptitude for the LSAT.

Have you seen an L2 of a 2.88 and.a 167 get accepted? Just actually curious because I haven't. Even splitters tend to have 3.3 and up. 

[Yogurt Baron]

I've been in a semi-similar situation and will DM some advice.

[lawandordermaker]

OP what's your Best 2? You said you did well at the beginning of your undergrad and right at the end. Several Canadian schools take your B2.

[dimsum1]

1 hour ago, mj1995 said:

Have you seen an L2 of a 2.88 and.a 167 get accepted? Just actually curious because I haven't. Even splitters tend to have 3.3 and up. 

My cGPA was 2.91 and my LSAT was 158, and got accepted into Ottawa.  That being said, I applied for Mature since my grades were from 2004.

OP:  Where are you looking to apply?  Maybe there are discretionary categories?  

[mynamehere.esq]

1 hour ago, dimsum1 said:

My cGPA was 2.91 and my LSAT was 158, and got accepted into Ottawa.  That being said, I applied for Mature since my grades were from 2004.

OP:  Where are you looking to apply?  Maybe there are discretionary categories?  

Truthfully, I’m looking to apply everywhere. I figured that I could always try to transfer after completing my first year if I ended up somewhere I wasn’t thrilled about. But, to be honest just after I made this post.. I started to consider Bond University. If Bond is where I end up.. I’d actually be able to start a year sooner than here in Canada. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by mynamehere.esq

[mj1995]

7 minutes ago, mynamehere.esq said:

Truthfully, I’m looking to apply everywhere. I figured that I could always try to transfer after completing my first year if I ended up somewhere I wasn’t thrilled about. But, to be honest, after posting this.. I’m now considering Bond University. If Bond is where I end up.. I’d actually be able to start a year sooner than here in Canada. 

Good luck OP I didn't mean to be harsh if thats how you took it, I hope you succeed if you need anything feel free to DM me 🙂❤️ 

My friend went to south hampton law in the UK she enjoyed it I think all you need is a GPA here is the link

https://www.southampton.ac.uk/law/undergraduate/international-applicants/canadian-applicants.page

Edited February 28, 2022 by mj1995

[Yogurt Baron]

7 minutes ago, mynamehere.esq said:

Truthfully, I’m looking to apply everywhere. I figured that I could always try to transfer after completing my first year if I ended up somewhere I wasn’t thrilled about. But, to be honest just after I made this post.. I started to consider Bond University. If Bond is where I end up.. I’d actually be able to start a year sooner than here in Canada. 

The Bond argument has been had here a million times, so I won't rehash it; you can find those arguments in the foreign schools forum, I'm sure. But most agree that attending there sets you up for huge challenges and barriers. I would suggest you exhaust your other options before considering Bond.

[mynamehere.esq]

9 minutes ago, mj1995 said:

Good luck OP I didn't mean to be harsh if thats how you took it, I hope you succeed if you need anything feel free to DM me 🙂❤️ 

Thank you so much!… It’s just such a sore and sensitive spot for me.. and this is because I feel conflicted about being upset about my grades since I was there for my mother. But, love is sacrifice. Your words truly mean a lot to me, and I am grateful for your advice. I can’t believe what an amazing support group this website has. I literally just posted for the first time tonight … in the middle of overthinking everything. 🤗❤️

3 minutes ago, Yogurt Baron said:

The Bond argument has been had here a million times, so I won't rehash it; you can find those arguments in the foreign schools forum, I'm sure. But most agree that attending there sets you up for huge challenges and barriers. I would suggest you exhaust your other options before considering Bond.

Oh really? I know a few people who have attended Bond and never would have assumed based on how successful they’ve been … thank you for the heads up! I’m sure it’s obvious that I’m new here lol.. 🙈

Edited February 28, 2022 by mynamehere.esq

[mynamehere.esq]

2 hours ago, lawandordermaker said:

OP what's your Best 2? You said you did well at the beginning of your undergrad and right at the end. Several Canadian schools take your B2.

….the website didn’t spit that calculation out. But, I’ll manage to get it. I’m on my phone right now, but I’ll post it tomorrow!

18 minutes ago, mj1995 said:

Good luck OP I didn't mean to be harsh if thats how you took it, I hope you succeed if you need anything feel free to DM me 🙂❤️ 

My friend went to south hampton law in the UK she enjoyed it I think all you need is a GPA here is the link

https://www.southampton.ac.uk/law/undergraduate/international-applicants/canadian-applicants.page

Thank for you for this!!

[mynamehere.esq]

3 hours ago, CleanHands said:

Write this LSAT under realistic, timed conditions as a diagnostic: https://cache.careers360.mobi/media/uploads/froala_editor/files/LSAT-practice-set.pdf

If you are one of those people who can get a 99th percentile LSAT with minimal effort (meaning something like a 167/95th percentile as a diagnostic), that will be a very different discussion than if you are an average LSAT writer who maybe, possibly, could get a great score with tons of effort and practice and investment.

But this really isn't a conversation that's going to be productive or useful until you know whether you have aptitude for the LSAT.

Thank you for your reply! This is honestly what I’m aiming for.. as I’m sure everyone who’s planning on writing the LSAT is lol. I’ve hired a tutor who I’ve been working with for two hours a week and I’m literally dedicating all of my time to studying. Surprisingly, I’m not cross eyed yet from all of the hyper-focusing that I’ve been doing…lol 😑. I’m planning on writing my initial LSAT exam in September and, I’m going in with the mindset knowing that I will absolutely be writing it more than once. January 2023 will be my last opportunity (maybe February depending on the school). Because, why not?? It will also alleviate the pressure of feeling like I only have one chance to do well.. and hopefully it will help eliminate the dreaded performance anxiety (somewhat). 

Edited February 28, 2022 by mynamehere.esq

[Darth Vader]

12 minutes ago, mynamehere.esq said:

Oh really? I know a few people who have attended Bond and never would have assumed based on how successful they’ve been … thank you for the heads up! I’m sure it’s obvious that I’m new here lol.. 🙈

Define success. You're learning the law of a different country, at a school that will accept you with a C/B- average and no LSAT score. A lot of employers and hiring managers here are Canadian law graduates and they will have a personal stigma against most of these foreign trained law degrees that Canadians pursue. The assumption will be that you could not get into a Canadian law school or did not even try. Considering how competitive the job market is, with there being graduates from even the top Canadian law schools who cannot find articling positions, you put yourself in a disadvantageous position with a foreign law degree.

The main foreign success stories I have seen fall into a few categories: 1) connections through family or friends 2) regional connections — if you are born and raised in a small town or city, then you can convince some employers there to hire you there 3) lots of professional experience — if you have extensive work experience prior to law school, this may help you with some employers if that experience is relevant to the clients and industries the employer works with and 4) diversity and strong social justice background — if you are BIPOC and have a strong social justice background, you may convince some public sector employers to hire you. 

The vast majority of foreign trained graduates struggle in the job market. Don't let the few success stories you see convince you otherwise. It's not a faster process because upon return, you will use up a lot of time with the NCA process, finding an articling position (many foreign trained grads take law clerk, legal assistant, and paralegal jobs for a few years just to convince an employer to hire them back as an articling student), and first year Associate jobs. Until you get to the 3-5 year call mark as a lawyer, you will face challenges. And getting to that 3-5 year call mark as a foreign lawyer in Canada is not at all easy. Hell, it's not easy even for Canadian law school graduates. 

[mynamehere.esq]

3 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

Define success. You're learning the law of a different country, at a school that will accept you with a C/B- average and no LSAT score. A lot of employers and hiring managers here are Canadian law graduates and they will have a personal stigma against most of these foreign trained law degrees that Canadians pursue. The assumption will be that you could not get into a Canadian law school or did not even try. Considering how competitive the job market is, with there being graduates from even the top Canadian law schools who cannot find articling positions, you put yourself in a disadvantageous position with a foreign law degree.

The main foreign success stories I have seen fall into a few categories: 1) connections through family or friends 2) regional connections — if you are born and raised in a small town or city, then you can convince some employers there to hire you there 3) lots of professional experience — if you have extensive work experience prior to law school, this may help you with some employers if that experience is relevant to the clients and industries the employer works with and 4) diversity and strong social justice background — if you are BIPOC and have a strong social justice background, you may convince some public sector employers to hire you. 

The vast majority of foreign trained graduates struggle in the job market. Don't let the few success stories you see convince you otherwise. It's not a faster process because upon return, you will use up a lot of time with the NCA process, finding an articling position (many foreign trained grads take law clerk, legal assistant, and paralegal jobs for a few years just to convince an employer to hire them back as an articling student), and first year Associate jobs. Until you get to the 3-5 year call mark as a lawyer, you will face challenges. And getting to that 3-5 year call mark as a foreign lawyer in Canada is not at all easy. Hell, it's not easy even for Canadian law school graduates. 

Thank you for your incredibly detailed reply. And, sharing your fluff free knowledge/perspective. I’m sure it can be incredibly difficult  .. I don’t disagree with a few of the things you’ve touched upon.. but, I also feel that there could possibly be some pros to considering Bond. Although, like I’ve shared above… I’m just considering it. I haven’t made any major moves aside from studying like a maniac for the LSAT  

… I actually have an articling position secured. Fortunately. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by mynamehere.esq

[Darth Vader]

5 minutes ago, mynamehere.esq said:

Thank you for your incredibly detailed reply. And, sharing your fluff free knowledge/perspective. I’m sure it can be incredibly difficult  .. I don’t disagree with a few of the things you’ve touched upon.. but, I also feel that there could possibly be some pros to considering Bond. Although, like I’ve shared above… I’m just considering it. I haven’t made any major moves aside from studying like a maniac for the LSAT  

… I actually have an articling position secured. Fortunately. 

You can disagree with my post, but it is helpful to other readers who may be in a similar situation as you and not have the connections that you do. If you have a job lined up upon return, make sure you get this in writing, or at least know with relative certainty that it will still be there for you a few years from now.

Given the immense costs involved in pursuing a legal education abroad, and the great risks involved upon return, I think my post is a fair warning. I get messages regularly from foreign trained law grads asking me if I know of any opportunities where they can work for free to get their foot in the door. Imagine how bad the situation is if people with a law degree are willing to work for free. Go on the Facebook Law Exchange Group and it's just daily posts from foreign trained law graduates looking for positions, with many willing to take on even law clerk and legal assistant jobs. This situation may not apply to you, but this is a public forum and posts here last forever, so it is helpful for people to consider all sides before making this decision. 

[mynamehere.esq]

18 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

You can disagree with my post, but it is helpful to other readers who may be in a similar situation as you and not have the connections that you do. If you have a job lined up upon return, make sure you get this in writing, or at least know with relative certainty that it will still be there for you a few years from now.

Given the immense costs involved in pursuing a legal education abroad, and the great risks involved upon return, I think my post is a fair warning. I get messages regularly from foreign trained law grads asking me if I know of any opportunities where they can work for free to get their foot in the door. Imagine how bad the situation is if people with a law degree are willing to work for free. Go on the Facebook Law Exchange Group and it's just daily posts from foreign trained law graduates looking for positions, with many willing to take on even law clerk and legal assistant jobs. This situation may not apply to you, but this is a public forum and posts here last forever, so it is helpful for people to consider all sides before making this decision. 

I don’t disagree with it. I just can’t relate personally… which, is understandable because this isn’t my area of expertise, nor an experience I’ve ever had. This is why I’m here, to gain as much information as I can. I truly appreciate everything you’ve shared and I’m absolutely taking it ALL into consideration — believe me! I think seeing things from all sides are helpful (and important). And, you’ve basically played devils advocate for me before I really had an opportunity to do so myself and delve into it further. Thank you, and I am grateful for all of the information you’ve shared. You’ve pointed out a few (more than a few) eye opening things that I need to keep top of mind. Thank you again for all of your advice.. truly!

….and, truth be told I’d much rather stay here. Or at least in North America. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by mynamehere.esq

[CleanHands]

40 minutes ago, mynamehere.esq said:

… I actually have an articling position secured. Fortunately. 

It's not uncommon for children of lawyers who run small firms to go to Bond, come back to Canada to article and then work at the family firm, and do just fine career-wise. It's also something that is highly stigmatized and looked down upon within the profession (even if clients don't care and financially these people are able to have successful careers). Bluntly, the common perception (fair or unfair) is that such people were too dumb to become lawyers through the path everyone else had to follow, and would never have been able to become lawyers if not for nepotism. The same stigma does not attach to lawyers with Canadian JDs working at family firms, as the optics in those cases are that they were able to get in on merit and had options and chose to work with their family.

I don't know your exact circumstances but since you're contemplating going to Bond and have articles lined up before even being admitted to law school, I just thought I'd let you know since the reputation of Bond appears to be news to you and you clearly have some sort of industry connections. Now, if you can get a Bond degree and have a career as a lawyer lined up and you're fine pushing ahead with that and learning as much as you can and being the best lawyer that you can and saying that the haters can go fuck themselves, more power to you. But it's something to be cognizant of, especially if that would bother you.

Edited February 28, 2022 by CleanHands

[mynamehere.esq]

20 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

It's not uncommon for children of lawyers who run small firms to go to Bond, come back to Canada to article and then work at the family firm, and do just fine career-wise. It's also something that is highly stigmatized and looked down upon within the profession (even if clients don't care and financially these people are able to have successful careers). Bluntly, the common perception (fair or unfair) is that such people were too dumb to become lawyers through the path everyone else had to follow, and would never have been able to become lawyers if not for nepotism. The same stigma does not attach to lawyers with Canadian JDs working at family firms, as the optics in those cases are that they were able to get in on merit and had options and chose to work with their family.

I don't know your exact circumstances but since you're contemplating going to Bond and have articles lined up before even being admitted to law school, I just thought I'd let you know since the reputation of Bond appears to be news to you and you may be in a situation like this. Now, if you can get a Bond degree and have a career as a lawyer lined up and you're fine pushing ahead with that and learning as much as you can and being the best lawyer that you can and saying that the haters can go fuck themselves, more power to you. But it's something to be cognizant of.

Lol. Thank you for this!! Bond was a random thought that popped into my mind this evening for the first time ever…and, I just happened to share it. I really would prefer not to go there and it wasn’t even really a thought. More just a “what if” …and… would it be right for me? But, I’ve now learned a lot about why that may not be the right path for me. Also, with all of the time that I’ve already invested and have dedicated to the LSAT…it would be a shame not to write it. I am determined to do well and conquer it. I’ve never been someone to find the easy way out of things. I have a natural competitive streak…and I’m very intrigued to find out what I can score on the LSAT. 

I completely understand what you’re saying… and agree that people need to do what they feel is best for them. Obviously, provided they know what it all truly entails ….and like you’ve mentioned, have a determined path/position already in place. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by mynamehere.esq

[CleanHands]

Just now, mynamehere.esq said:

-Snip-

Cheers! Best of luck on the LSAT. I'm glad you took the post that way as I was hoping what I wrote didn't come across as some kind of attack because it wasn't intended that way. It's just info I'd want to know in your shoes, and it seems we see eye to eye on that. 👍

Still good to have options.

[mynamehere.esq]

57 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

Cheers! Best of luck on the LSAT. I'm glad you took the post that way as I was hoping what I wrote didn't come across as some kind of attack because it wasn't intended that way. It's just info I'd want to know in your shoes, and it seems we see eye to eye on that. 👍

Still good to have options.

Thank you so so much! And, absolutely I did. You were very concise but also incredibly considerate. I appreciate everything!

Edited February 28, 2022 by mynamehere.esq

[mynamehere.esq]

13 hours ago, lawandordermaker said:

OP what's your Best 2? You said you did well at the beginning of your undergrad and right at the end. Several Canadian schools take your B2.

Good morning Lawandordermaker, my B2 comes to 3.72 😢

Edited February 28, 2022 by mynamehere.esq

[mynamehere.esq]

11 hours ago, Yogurt Baron said:

The Bond argument has been had here a million times, so I won't rehash it; you can find those arguments in the foreign schools forum, I'm sure. But most agree that attending there sets you up for huge challenges and barriers. I would suggest you exhaust your other options before considering Bond.

Definitely! I’ve decided that Bond isn’t for me. And by the sound of it, I’d literally be opening a can of worms. I want to start my career feeling proud of my accomplishments and excited to get started! Not set myself up …carry this “stigma”, feel hindered and face entirely new obstacles upon my return just to be able to practice.

Thank you!

[lawandordermaker]

57 minutes ago, mynamehere.esq said:

Good morning Lawandordermaker, my B2 comes to 3.72 😢

Why the sad face? That's good! Apply to B2 school's. I think Ryerson does best 20 credits as well. Also see what taking out your worst 1/4th of marks does for UNB. Get a high LSAT score and write a strong personal statement explaining everything and you should be good to go!

[mynamehere.esq]

48 minutes ago, lawandordermaker said:

Why the sad face? That's good! Apply to B2 school's. I think Ryerson does best 20 credits as well. Also see what taking out your worst 1/4th of marks does for UNB. Get a high LSAT score and write a strong personal statement explaining everything and you should be good to go!

Thank you for the great advice! …The sad face is because the grades that I’ve disclosed truly don’t represent my work ethic and what I am capable of. As well, that it could have been so much better. However, I need to continue to move forward… and truth be told my gpa is only a portion of the entire application (albeit a big one lol). There are a lot of factors to consider when weighing everything as a whole. I will definitely look into what you’ve shared and take it all into consideration when applying. 🙂