Ethics of applying to Canadian schools while on one-year deferral

[Patient0L]

What are the ethics/obligations regarding applying to Canadian schools after having been granted a one-year deferral from another?

(Note: The deferral is for legitimate reasons unrelated to sending out more applications.)

In the US, many schools require a deferral contract for which the admitted student agrees to not apply to any schools during the interim year before matriculating. There is a general sentiment that it is unethical or frowned upon and can lead to offers being rescinded and info being shared with schools. (Not sure if this is actually true.)

What about Canada? Could an offer be rescinded and/or other schools notified if a student sends out applications for admissions during the deferral year?

And, even if there are no negative consequences, would it be unethical?

Asking for a friend!

[Ben]

It strikes me as obviously unethical to apply to other schools during a deferral. My deferral arrangement with a Canadian law school involved a written agreement on my part not to apply to any other school. I imagine that’s pretty standard. 

[Patient0L]

1 hour ago, Ben said:

It strikes me as obviously unethical to apply to other schools during a deferral. My deferral arrangement with a Canadian law school involved a written agreement on my part not to apply to any other school. I imagine that’s pretty standard. 

Thanks for this info! From what I gather, they just granted him a deferral letter that said that he was going to be enrolled in 2023 rather than 2022. I think that he's considering looking for something closer to home, but doesn't want to give up his spot. He also doesn't want to jeopardize next year. I am assuming this would be a bad thing to ask the admissions office about.

[QueensDenning]

20 minutes ago, Patient0L said:

Thanks for this info! From what I gather, they just granted him a deferral letter that said that he was going to be enrolled in 2023 rather than 2022. I think that he's considering looking for something closer to home, but doesn't want to give up his spot. He also doesn't want to jeopardize next year. I am assuming this would be a bad thing to ask the admissions office about.

If I were him, I'd apply, see if I got in, then decide what to do if I get into whatever school I wanted over the deferral. I don't think it's necessarily unethical to apply to other schools during a deferral, especially if they haven't signed anything stating that they would not do so. It's not like the seat will go un-filled. 

[Patient0L]

24 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

It's not like the seat will go un-filled. 

I think that he is worried about negative consequences in the near term or maybe long term if it is indeed perceived as shifty.

However, @QueensDenningyou kind of got to what I was thinking about in terms of ethics. Obviously sneaking around isn't great. But... if the school really cared wouldn't they make him sign a contract? And, if he does end up getting accepted somewhere else, next cycle they'll have plenty of candidates to choose from and they'll get to add even more cash onto their huge pile of forfeited deposit money.

But maybe the risk could be that the schools he is thinking of applying to might not like it? Or would they even know? 

I'd be curious if there is anyone anywhere on this forum who has done/attempted this.

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Patient0L

[QueensDenning]

11 minutes ago, Patient0L said:

I think that he is worried about negative consequences in the near term or maybe long term if it is indeed perceived as shifty.

However, @QueensDenningyou kind of got to what I was thinking about in terms of ethics. Obviously sneaking around isn't great. But... if the school really cared wouldn't they make him sign a contract? And, if he does end up getting accepted somewhere else, next cycle they'll have plenty of candidates to choose from and they'll get to add even more cash onto their huge pile of forfeited deposit money.

But maybe the risk could be that the schools he is thinking of applying to might not like it? Or would they even know? 

I'd be curious if there is anyone anywhere on this forum who has done/attempted this.

 

Just my $0.02, because I have no idea, but I can't imagine that the schools he's applying to would know - just logistically I'd find that highly improbable. And I mean, even if he did sign a contract... where you go to law-school is a pretty big decision. If I was on deferral from Lakehead and somehow got into UofT I'd certainly take whatever risks there may be in breaching that contract to go to UofT. My intuition is that you'd forfeit the deposit and that would be that. But again, this is just my personal view of the situation. 

[Rashabon]

I do love the fast and loose relationship prospective lawyers sometimes demonstrate regarding things as silly as "ethics" and "moral fibre" and "being a scumbag".

[QueensDenning]

10 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

I do love the fast and loose relationship prospective lawyers sometimes demonstrate regarding things as silly as "ethics" and "moral fibre" and "being a scumbag".

I knew I'd get called out for this and yeah it doesn't go over my head that this is on the line. I just don't necessarily think this crosses that line (of being an unethical, morally questionable scumbag). It's not inherently unethical to breach a contract, depending on the particular contract. I also think that an argument can be made that a contract preventing you from reneging on a law school deferral is unconscionable. 

Maybe I'm just biased because I feel like the high cost of tuition isn't justified for the services I'm getting. But I wouldn't loose too much sleep over "being a scumbag" vis a vis the economic interests of a law school. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by QueensDenning

[togetic]

If we're going to go the contract route, it's possible to argue that the breach wouldn't be you accepting another offer from another law school but applying to another law school in the first place. The letter doesn't need to literally say the words "this is a contract" to be a contract. So to your question, yes, I think if the school finds out you applied to other places which signals an intent to not abide by whatever agreement went on, they very much could rescind their offer.

And yes, this is unethical.

 

[QueensDenning]

2 minutes ago, togetic said:

And yes, this is unethical.

 

Why do you think so?

It's interesting that some on this forum are really quick to preach about ethics and the importance of keeping your word without any semblance of consideration for the power imbalances at play and huge difference that a decision like this could make for someone's career. The spot at the school can be filled by any number of good candidates that apply for the relevant cycle. It literally makes no difference to the school. But from the student's perspective, it's 60+K in tuition, 3 years of your life and possibly the difference between 50K+ a year in starting salary. If you want to expand on the reasoning that would be great, because i'm just genuinely interested, but I really don't think it's as black and white as you're suggesting. 

[Patient0L]

3 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

Why do you think so?

It's interesting that some on this forum are really quick to preach about ethics and the importance of keeping your word without any semblance of consideration for the power imbalances at play and huge difference that a decision like this could make for someone's career. The spot at the school can be filled by any number of good candidates that apply for the relevant cycle. It literally makes no difference to the school. But from the student's perspective, it's 60+K in tuition, 3 years of your life and possibly the difference between 50K+ a year in starting salary. If you want to expand on the reasoning that would be great, because i'm just genuinely interested, but I really don't think it's as black and white as you're suggesting. 

Yes, I am curious too, about what exactly is unethical. Is it that you are saying you will matriculate but in reality, it is only unless you can't get something better? Isn't that what 10000+ law school applicants are literally doing right now?

[togetic]

7 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

Why do you think so?

 

I mean, I'm not going to get uber philosophical and what makes an act ethical or unethical, but I would say being ethical at the baseline includes having integrity, being honest, taking responsibility, "doing the right thing." Telling a school you're going to go to that school but can't for a year for x reason, that school accepting this and keeping your spot open for you and saving a seat for you in that class, is an agreement that you and the school both agree to honour. Breaking that agreement would be wrong.

I'm kind of swayed that there are obvious power imbalances at play that would affect this at a high level, but the truth is that how you or I think about the ethics don't matter (I also don't think I was "preaching" about ethics lmao). There's no law that says you have to be ethical, unless there's some kind of Bar requirement which could prevent you from getting licensed. 

What *does* matter is the potential cost of applying while on a deferral year. The school might find out and rescind your offer, and other schools will not look too kindly on this. Deans talk. The question for OP is whether that's worth it against the benefit. And, to your hypo, if you're deferred at Lakehead but your stats make you competitive for U of T, just notify Lakehead that you withdraw and then apply to your other schools. 

[Patient0L]

6 minutes ago, togetic said:

I mean, I'm not going to get uber philosophical and what makes an act ethical or unethical, but I would say being ethical at the baseline includes having integrity, being honest, taking responsibility, "doing the right thing." Telling a school you're going to go to that school but can't for a year for x reason, that school accepting this and keeping your spot open for you and saving a seat for you in that class, is an agreement that you and the school both agree to honour. Breaking that agreement would be wrong.

I'm kind of swayed that there are obvious power imbalances at play that would affect this at a high level, but the truth is that how you or I think about the ethics don't matter (I also don't think I was "preaching" about ethics lmao). There's no law that says you have to be ethical, unless there's some kind of Bar requirement which could prevent you from getting licensed. 

What *does* matter is the potential cost of applying while on a deferral year. The school might find out and rescind your offer, and other schools will not look too kindly on this. Deans talk. The question for OP is whether that's worth it against the benefit. And, to your hypo, if you're deferred at Lakehead but your stats make you competitive for U of T, just notify Lakehead that you withdraw and then apply to your other schools. 

Thanks this isn't a bad idea, withdrawing if he actually wants to go through with the applications. But that could be risky too, as there is no guarantee of acceptance. I wonder if there is a way to find out what the schools actually think of this.

[Pendragon]

Ultimately, you are not the first person that has thought of some innovative, newfound way to game the system. Law schools have been doing this for a long time and are likely aware that some deferred students would be tempted to apply to other schools. Some may have even tried in the past. It's more likely than not that they will just pick up the phone and call the school/s you applied to and let them know the situation. I wonder if there is a way for law schools to check if their deferred candidates have applied to other Canadian law schools. Is this a risk your "friend" wants to take? What's wrong with the law school your "friend" accepted versus the school they actually want to attend?

Honestly, give the law schools a call and just ask them. You can do this anonymously without revealing your identity. 

[Rashabon]

1 hour ago, QueensDenning said:

I knew I'd get called out for this and yeah it doesn't go over my head that this is on the line. I just don't necessarily think this crosses that line (of being an unethical, morally questionable scumbag). It's not inherently unethical to breach a contract, depending on the particular contract. I also think that an argument can be made that a contract preventing you from reneging on a law school deferral is unconscionable. 

Maybe I'm just biased because I feel like the high cost of tuition isn't justified for the services I'm getting. But I wouldn't loose too much sleep over "being a scumbag" vis a vis the economic interests of a law school. 

The bolded part is insanely stupid. Nothing forced you to accept the offer and defer. You can simply choose not to accept the offer and try your luck the next year.

The issue, which is being left unsaid, is what is the distinction between just simply calling the school and asking them to cancel your deferral and then applying? Because the entire point is that OP's "friend" is hoping to avoid detection so that they can leverage their bird in the hand. The ethical answer is to withdraw their offer so that you can try your luck applying. By applying with an acceptance in reserve that was granted to you on generally exceptional grounds is the unethical part. You're also leaving out the knock on effects of this. At what point does the offer disappear? Only when the candidate chooses to accept another offer from another school? In the meantime, what part of the cycle is that in and which law student got screwed out of a spot at that school as a result?

[Patient0L]

11 minutes ago, Pendragon said:

Honestly, give the law schools a call and just ask them. You can do this anonymously without revealing your identity. 

Good point. 

Totally going to call. Will update the forum if anyone is interested.

Btw, my "friend" is a real friend!!

[Whist]

Deferral means your friend accepted the offer of admission. As far as I am aware that means they are expected not to apply elsewhere (although I believe the TRU forced deferrals are an exception). There is nothing preventing your friend from emailing the school to clarify whether they are allowed to apply elsewhere. It’s not a great look for someone to start their legal career trying to pull something over a large organization that has no doubt seen this attempted multiple times before.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Whist