Windsor Law admit - don't know what to do

[Govrap89]

Hi all,

I've been accepted to Windsor Law. I've also been waitlisted at Osgoode, and am still waiting to hear back from Queen's, Ottawa and McGill (praying this happens before July 1st). 

I'm really confused, and don't know whether or not to go to Windsor. I have been out of undergrad for 2 years and have a relatively good job in the non-profit sector. If I stay I will probably be promoted, and plan on moving out of my parents house to buy a condo downtown Toronto. I really wanted to go to law school when I applied, and I did so much to improve my application as a re-applicant. Now I'm confused and scared, partly because I've only been accepted to Windsor, and I don't know if I'll enjoy it, fit in, or if the reputation will hurt my career prospects. At the same time I'm very bored with my job and feel I'm not fulfilling my potential in my current career trajectory. I am very interested in law but I have no idea what my career would look like as a lawyer.

Part of me would be more comfortable making a decision if I had gotten in to Osgoode or Queen's. I plan on trying to transfer to Osgoode if I do go to Windsor. How realistic is this if I can get good grades?

Any thoughts from people who have had similar difficulty deciding whether or not to go to law school? It could greatly accelerate my career, earning prospects, and be fulfilling, but equally I've heard so many scare stories and lawyers who say not to go to law school...

[Meryl]

There's nothing wrong with Windsor's reputation. You haven't really mentioned what you want to do with your law degree. I suppose if you want to work on Bay Street, being at Windsor instead of a city school or a school like Queens/Western could be a slight hindrance. But Windsor is a good school. 

Personally, I wouldn't transfer, just because I think it's more valuable to take full advantage of the time you have at the law school you are at. You would make better connections by embracing being at one school for three years, instead of spending one year at a school you plan to leave and then arriving in year two at your second school. From what I've heard, transfer applications tend to be more successful when there is a strong reason for transferring (i.e. family emergency, career opportunity, etc). 

[QMT20]

I think based on what people have said in other threads, it's unlikely that there will be movement at schools like Osgoode, Queen's, Ottawa, or McGill before July 1st. You may have seen the other thread about how TRU overbooked their class and I think it's possible these other schools are also closer to their cap at this point than in past years. When offers go firm on July 1st, they'll know if they have additional spots but likely not before then. 

If you don't get off Osgoode's waitlist before July 1st, I would just go to Windsor (assuming you're in the single-JD program). I think it's fair to say Windsor has a weaker reputation than the other law schools you mentioned but their reputation is still good, and many students from Windsor do land in the same positions as students from Osgoode every year. 

On this website, there are some users who transferred schools and for whom it worked out great. At Queen's this year though, I know of 2 students who transferred from Windsor and 1 from Ottawa and none of them landed positions during the formal recruitment process. People said in old-threads on LS.ca that if you transfer schools they'll weigh your application against other applicants from your 1L law school. In that case, if you're a dean's lister at Windsor after 1L then it doesn't really matter if you transfer to Osgoode or not because you'll likely get a lot of interest from Toronto employers wherever you spend your 2L year. Likewise, if you're an average to slightly above-average student at Windsor after 1L, I doubt your chances of landing a job in the formal recruitment will be drastically improved just because you transferred to Osgoode. 

If I were you, I'd accept the Windsor offer and make the most of the opportunity I have in hand. If you work hard and do well in 1L, being at Windsor is not going to hold you back from whatever job you're aiming to apply for. I would personally also stay at Windsor for 2L and 3L because as @JaneAusten said, you make better connections by being at the same school for three-years. You'll have a closer relationship with your professors who will likely offer you RA positions in upper-year and write reference letters for you in the future. You'll have more time to be involved with the Journals and Clinics at your school and more opportunity to work your way up to leadership positions in those organizations. 

Someone else might tell you about the benefits of transferring and you should listen to what they have to say and make up your own mind about what you want to do. But I disagree with anyone who tells you there's anything wrong with accepting an offer from Windsor (again assuming you're in the single-JD program). 

Lastly, about the horror stories warning you against going to law school. In Canada, I think that mostly has to do with the fact that law school is a competitive environment. Some schools will promote themselves about being super collegial, and most people do land on their feet for articling. However, there are qualitative differences between the opportunities the top students in law school receive vs average law students. Even if the people around you are very supportive, a lot of the stress from law school comes from comparing yourself to others and feeling bad about good things that you anticipated happening which didn't. You might be in an objectively good position but feel subjectively inferior to some of your peers. Additionally, once you get into practice, law is a stressful job. Many people have to work long and unpredictable hours and deal with clients who have high expectations and a lot on the line. Those are reasons for not going to law school but they pretty much apply to any law school in Canada. However, the vast majority of people who go to law school in Canada will find articling and ultimately a job after they graduate so if you're thinking about horror stories like some schools in the US where students go into six figure debt just to be unemployed, that's much rarer in Canada. 

[johnny.rahmbo]

I agree with JaneAusten and will add that (and not trying to be discouraging in any way) it seems like there is a deeper question here of whether you want to attend law school at all. How do you know you will fit in at Osgoode or Queens? Are you deciding on a school exclsuivley based on reputation. Im not sure this is the right approach in Canada. All law schools are very good and i would say coming from Windsor the only thing it would be very hard to do would be to get to NY. I also would not go into 1L knowing that you are going to transfer. Seems like more time to decide and think on this would be beneficial to you. I urge you not to make the decision lightly. 

[Govrap89]

My reason for wanting to transfer is partly that my family, friends, whole life is in Toronto, and partly because I would love to have access to the clubs, journals, research that comes out of Osgoode. It's discouraging to hear that its hard to get involved as a transfer student, but it's something I was expecting.

Landing on Bay St. is actually not my goal. For instance, I don't think I would apply to transfer to U of T. 

The reason why I'm hesitant to go to Windsor is because I don't know what exactly I want out of law and worry Windsor will not help me explore/secure interesting positions. I see myself either working for the government or with non-profits in my current area of expertise. The ultimate goal in a few years would be working in-house or as general counsel at a non-profit/social enterprise or on humanitarian law. Outside of the formal Bay St. recruit, international reputation is certainly important for these kinds of positions, another reason why I am interested in Osgoode. 

Ultimately this decision is up to me and a lot of thinking needs to happen in the next few weeks. I appreciate everyone's input!

[QueensDenning]

21 minutes ago, Govrap89 said:

My reason for wanting to transfer is partly that my family, friends, whole life is in Toronto, and partly because I would love to have access to the clubs, journals, research that comes out of Osgoode. It's discouraging to hear that its hard to get involved as a transfer student, but it's something I was expecting.

Landing on Bay St. is actually not my goal. For instance, I don't think I would apply to transfer to U of T. 

The reason why I'm hesitant to go to Windsor is because I don't know what exactly I want out of law and worry Windsor will not help me explore/secure interesting positions. I see myself either working for the government or with non-profits in my current area of expertise. The ultimate goal in a few years would be working in-house or as general counsel at a non-profit/social enterprise or on humanitarian law. Outside of the formal Bay St. recruit, international reputation is certainly important for these kinds of positions, another reason why I am interested in Osgoode. 

Ultimately this decision is up to me and a lot of thinking needs to happen in the next few weeks. I appreciate everyone's input!

I've heard that Windsor actually has a great reputation for non-profit type of work. Also, I would imagine that It would be really tough to get involved in the more competitive clinics/journals/extracurriculars in upper years as a transfer student. For example, applications for 2L student case workers at Clinics are due after 1L mid term exams. Same goes for the for-credit journal positions and most of the club exec positions.

[Govrap89]

6 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

I've heard that Windsor actually has a great reputation for non-profit type of work. Also, I would imagine that It would be really tough to get involved in the more competitive clinics/journals/extracurriculars in upper years as a transfer student. For example, applications for 2L student case workers at Clinics are due after 1L mid term exams. Same goes for the for-credit journal positions and most of the club exec positions.

ah that sucks 

[MapleLeafs]

From what I've seen on LinkedIn, Osgoode transfers do well for themselves and land solid jobs, including Bay St. 

[LMP]

4 hours ago, Govrap89 said:

Hi all,

I've been accepted to Windsor Law. I've also been waitlisted at Osgoode, and am still waiting to hear back from Queen's, Ottawa and McGill (praying this happens before July 1st). 

I'm really confused, and don't know whether or not to go to Windsor. I have been out of undergrad for 2 years and have a relatively good job in the non-profit sector. If I stay I will probably be promoted, and plan on moving out of my parents house to buy a condo downtown Toronto. I really wanted to go to law school when I applied, and I did so much to improve my application as a re-applicant. Now I'm confused and scared, partly because I've only been accepted to Windsor, and I don't know if I'll enjoy it, fit in, or if the reputation will hurt my career prospects. At the same time I'm very bored with my job and feel I'm not fulfilling my potential in my current career trajectory. I am very interested in law but I have no idea what my career would look like as a lawyer.

Part of me would be more comfortable making a decision if I had gotten in to Osgoode or Queen's. I plan on trying to transfer to Osgoode if I do go to Windsor. How realistic is this if I can get good grades?

Any thoughts from people who have had similar difficulty deciding whether or not to go to law school? It could greatly accelerate my career, earning prospects, and be fulfilling, but equally I've heard so many scare stories and lawyers who say not to go to law school...

I get what you are saying and I don't fully agree with some of the comments saying it doesn't really matter where you go if you don't care about big law placements. 

I have no authority to tell you there's a huge difference between schools, but I can very much relate to your desire to make use of the clinics, courses and opportunities Osgoode offers. 

The question is, are you willing to turn down a guaranteed spot at Windsor for a potential shot at Osgoode either this year or next. That is a decision only you can make. 

Transferring is an option, but I wouldn't go to any school if my sole intent was to transfer. You simply can't guarantee you'll be able to. You don't know what grades you'll get. 

Sit down, take a day or two, fully contemplate how you feel about attending Windsor and if it's a place your be comfortable making the jump to. 

 

[VanCity250]

Law school "reputation" is mostly a myth in Canada. If you have a strong application (top grades, good ECs etc), and interview well at OCIs, you can get a job at the best firms in the country regardless of the law school you attend. If anything, going to Queens or Oz might make it more difficult to land the best jobs as you will be trying to beat the curve and compete for RA and clinic positions against the presumably strongest students of that cycle. Unless you're confident enough in your own abilities that you will be in the top 25% of the class at Queens or Oz, I would really take a moment to reconsider Windsor before dismissing it as a school that can "hurt your career prospects". 

What will actually hurt your career prospects is thinking that the mythical "reputation" of your top choice schools are going to carry you to Bay St. For the most part, firms don't really care about the school, they just want to hire the strongest students they can find. Take a moment and skim the summer student lists at the best firms in Toronto -- you will see Windsor students at almost all of them. 

[CleanHands]

9 minutes ago, raptors905 said:

Law school "reputation" is mostly a myth in Canada. If you have a strong application (top grades, good ECs etc), and interview well at OCIs, you can get a job at the best firms in the country regardless of the law school you attend. If anything, going to Queens or Oz might make it more difficult to land the best jobs as you will be trying to beat the curve and compete for RA and clinic positions against the presumably strongest students of that cycle.

This is really terrible advice. Different schools do have materially different placement rates. And there's a bit of an internal contradiction with you calling students at more competitive schools "stronger" while acting like you are the only one who realizes it while employers treat all Canadian schools the same.

You're right that top students at all Canadian schools do well. But most of us don't end up being top students. Which is why the stories those ultra vires figures and such tell will matter to the average student.

Arguing that schools with more competitive admission standards actually provide worse prospects because it's harder to be at the top of the class is certainly a novel take...

EDIT - The poster I'm responding to is a current Windsor student. Readers should keep that in mind.

Edited June 21, 2021 by CleanHands

[Govrap89]

1 minute ago, raptors905 said:

Law school "reputation" is mostly a myth in Canada. If you have a strong application (top grades, good ECs etc), and interview well at OCIs, you can get a job at the best firms in the country regardless of the law school you attend. If anything, going to Queens or Oz might make it more difficult to land the best jobs as you will be trying to beat the curve and compete for RA and clinic positions against the presumably strongest students of that cycle. Unless you're confident enough in your own abilities that you will be in the top 25% of the class at Queens or Oz, I would really take a moment to reconsider Windsor before dismissing it as a school that can "hurt your career prospects". 

What will actually hurt your career prospects is thinking that the mythical "reputation" of your top choice schools are going to carry you to Bay St. For the most part, firms don't really care about the school, they just want to hire the strongest students they can find. Take a moment and skim the summer student lists at the best firms in Toronto -- you will see Windsor students at almost all of them. 

I definitely understand what you're saying, but as I mentioned my fear with Windsor is not only reputation but fear of stepping out of my comfort zone, leaving my family and friends. I actually really don't want to end up on Bay St., but looking at international law/non-profit sector, I worry Windsor is not well known enough to get me through the door.

[CleanHands]

Just now, Govrap89 said:

I actually really don't want to end up on Bay St., but looking at international law/non-profit sector, I worry Windsor is not well known enough to get me through the door.

FYI public interest jobs are often more competitive than Bay. And the school you go to does matter. Your concerns are not without merit.

[LMP]

3 minutes ago, raptors905 said:

Law school "reputation" is mostly a myth in Canada. If you have a strong application (top grades, good ECs etc), and interview well at OCIs, you can get a job at the best firms in the country regardless of the law school you attend. If anything, going to Queens or Oz might make it more difficult to land the best jobs as you will be trying to beat the curve and compete for RA and clinic positions against the presumably strongest students of that cycle. Unless you're confident enough in your own abilities that you will be in the top 25% of the class at Queens or Oz, I would really take a moment to reconsider Windsor before dismissing it as a school that can "hurt your career prospects". 

What will actually hurt your career prospects is thinking that the mythical "reputation" of your top choice schools are going to carry you to Bay St. For the most part, firms don't really care about the school, they just want to hire the strongest students they can find. Take a moment and skim the summer student lists at the best firms in Toronto -- you will see Windsor students at almost all of them. 

You can see the placement rates of different schools for OCIs. Windsor places less than half the percentage of students that Queens, Western and Osgoode. And 33% less than UofT. 

Moreover, if what school you go to truly has no impact why would anyone attend the more expensive schools? Why doesn't everyone attend the cheapest possible school? Are applicants just stupid? Are they so attached to geographic areas that they are willing to pay tens of thousands more? That doesn't seem right to me.

You are correct in saying that some people unfairly look down on Windsor. You are correct in saying that no matter what school you go to, top students will find success. And you are correct in saying that prestige is sometimes overblown. But to say that the school you attend doesn't make a difference, especially in terms of OCIs and Bay street placements, is just patently incorrect.

[erin otoole]

I believe the "return to normal plans" of schools should be factored into students decisions. Windsor is offering only one course per student in person this fall, with no word on the Winter term. A number of Windsor faculty, are EXTREMLY against offering a variety of in person classes because of "variants" and "unclear government guidelines" . Speaking with the 1Ls and 2Ls there is a slight concern that NEXT year may be online as well. 

On the job front don't worry, you hustle at Windsor and you will get a job, OCI's aren't the greatest but outside that you are fine, thousands came before you and thousands will come after, most getting jobs.  

Edited June 21, 2021 by erin otoole
remove a dumb joke

[Govrap89]

7 minutes ago, erin otoole said:

I believe the "return to normal plans" of schools should be factored into students decisions. Windsor is offering only one course per student in person this fall, with no word on the Winter term. A number of Windsor faculty, are EXTREMLY against offering a variety of in person classes because of "variants" and "unclear government guidelines" . Speaking with the 1Ls and 2Ls there is a slight concern that NEXT year may be online as well. 

On the job front don't worry, you hustle at Windsor and you will get a job, OCI's aren't the greatest but outside that you are fine, thousands came before you and thousands will come after, most getting jobs.  

LOL thanks erin o toole. Im thinking of this too... first year Windsor online then transfer to Osgoode OR stay at Windsor if I like it.