uOttawa vs Ryerson

[PokeLawyer]

Just got an acceptance from Ottawa, I have 3 days to decide which school to provisionally accept...pls help

[NowOrNever]

Ottawa.

[Chef Justice]

If Toronto BigLaw is your goal, I would probably choose Ryerson. While it's hard to gauge, Ryerson placed more students in the Toronto 2L Recruit than Ottawa did. I think this comes down partly to Ryerson's location in Toronto and Ottawa students not caring as much for Toronto BigLaw. Ottawa is more known for public interest and international law, so if this is your goal, I'd choose Ottawa. Ottawa is also a more established school than Ryerson, so if that is a concern as well, I would also choose Ottawa.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Chef Justice

[reaperlaw]

5 hours ago, Chef Justice said:

If Toronto BigLaw is your goal, I would probably choose Ryerson. While it's hard to gauge, Ryerson placed more students in the Toronto 2L Recruit than Ottawa did. I think this comes down partly to Ryerson's location in Toronto and Ottawa students not caring as much for Toronto BigLaw. Ottawa is more known for public interest and international law, so if this is your goal, I'd choose Ottawa. Ottawa is also a more established school than Ryerson, so if that is a concern as well, I would also choose Ottawa.

This is not true. LASL placed 27 students in 2022 2L Toronto, while Ottawa placed 41. In 2021, Ottawa placed 50 (two less than Queens and nine less than Western).

You may say, "well LASL placed 18 percent compared to Ottawa's 15 percent", however, this ignores the fact that a significant portion of Ottawa, including many of the high achievers, opt out of Toronto recruit. Likely the highest percentage of students that do this in Ontario outside of Lakehead.

Another factor to consider is that there are likely Toronto firms or partners are biased against LASL, just as there has been bias against Lakehead, Windsor, and TRU (whether you agree with that bias or not). I have never met someone who has said the same regarding Ottawa. There are even certain Toronto firms, e.g. Bennett Jones, that have a soft spot for Ottawa students.

[Chef Justice]

5 minutes ago, reaperlaw said:

This is not true. LASL placed 27 students in 2022 2L Toronto, while Ottawa placed 41. In 2021, Ottawa placed 50 (two less than Queens and nine less than Western).

You may say, "well LASL placed 18 percent compared to Ottawa's 15 percent", however, this ignores the fact that a significant portion of Ottawa, including many of the high achievers, opt out of Toronto recruit. Likely the highest percentage of students that do this in Ontario outside of Lakehead.

Another factor to consider is that there are likely Toronto firms or partners are biased against LASL, just as there has been bias against Lakehead, Windsor, and TRU (whether you agree with that bias or not). I have never met someone who has said the same regarding Ottawa. There are even certain Toronto firms, e.g. Bennett Jones, that have a soft spot for Ottawa students.

Some of this is definitely fair. However, there still seems to be a consensus that Ottawa isn't exactly the school to go to if you want to go into Toronto BigLaw. I still think the 18% vs 15% difference between Ryerson and Ottawa is noteworthy, and thats me including the fact that Ottawa students opt out of the Toronto Recruit. I have a sibling that is currently a 2L at uOttawa Law and they have mentioned how Ryerson's location is definitely giving them an advantage compared to Ottawa students for the recruit. I didn't know there are firms that have a soft spot for Ottawa students, which is definitely helpful for OP to know (and myself personally). I also know a friend in 1L at Ryerson, and asked them about the 2L Recruit numbers. They explained that a lot of students don't go through the process and won't be represented in the numbers. So at least the way I see it, Ryerson would be a better choice for Toronto BigLaw by virtue of location and because Ottawa isn't known as the school you go to for Toronto BigLaw. Personally, I think the biggest thing against Ryerson is that it's so new. I never considered that there would be bias from firms against Ryerson Law, but knowing if there is would definitely help OP's decision if BigLaw is an area they want to pursue.

[CleanHands]

I'm always skeptical of "a lot of students opt out of OCIs" comments about the student bodies of any law school in Canada.

Granted, I went to a very corporate-focused school and BigLaw OCI jobs were the prize as far as the vast majority of students were concerned. But even in that context, at a school that statistically performs well at OCIs, there were a lot of students who were vocally BigLaw-or-bust in 1L only to suddenly say to people "I had the chance to think about it and I'm more interested in small firm practices..." after 1L grades came back (surely coincidentally...) and before OCI applications were due.

Anyways unless someone can offer statistics demonstrating otherwise I think it's a fair assumption that differences in recruit outcomes between schools are not attributable to significantly more competitive candidates at one school compared to the other opting out.

[Chef Justice]

Yeah, the whole being skeptical about opting out of OCIs is fair enough. At the end of the day, I'm not sure either school would be best for Toronto BigLaw (compared to Western, Queens, Oz and UofT). If OP isn't sure on what type of law they are interested in and doesn't care for downtown Toronto, I would probably choose uOttawa if I was them.

[QMT20]

I'm also skeptical about claims that a lot of students opt out of OCIs at X school or a lot of high achievers at X school don't apply for OCIs. I could make that claim about Queen's based on my observation that none of the three overall medalists in my year applied for Toronto big law. However, I can't actually say what proportion of our overall class applied for OCIs compared to the class at Western, Ottawa or Osgoode and whatever claim I make about the performance of my school compared to others being impacted by lack of interest is limited by my lack of insight into the actual interest at other student bodies. 

That being said, I think the difference between 15% and 18% is negligible, especially in light of the fact that Ottawa placed a much larger overall number of students. Ryerson may do better next year but they may also do worse. Ottawa will probably continue to hover around 15% and place between 35-50 students as it always does. 

Outside of OCIs, I think Ottawa has an advantage in most other areas compared to Ryerson. Ottawa places well at the FC/FCA and as a result they probably have the best clerkship placement rates in Ontario after U of T and Osgoode. They have DOJ internships which you can do while you're in law school (though they aren't the only law school that has this) and others have commented that they have strong placements in the public sector. There's also no question that they place the most in the Ottawa recruit, though I don't actually think its fair to use that placement to justify their lower placements in Toronto. 

I think Ottawa is a much more well-rounded school than Ryerson and whatever advantage Ryerson offers for Toronto big law (if any) wouldn't be enough to justify choosing them over Ottawa. Ryerson could improve over time and as some people have commented, our opinions might change in 10-years. At this time, I'd stick with Ottawa though. 

[QMT20]

1 hour ago, Chef Justice said:

 I also know a friend in 1L at Ryerson, and asked them about the 2L Recruit numbers. They explained that a lot of students don't go through the process and won't be represented in the numbers. 

I read this after I made my original post. Until there are statistics about how many students actually apply to the recruit from each school, this is a non-verifiable claim that anyone can make to explain low recruitment numbers at their school. As I noted, none of the three overall medalists in my year at Queen's applied for Toronto big law in the 2L recruit. I could use that observation to claim that the top students from Queen's aren't interested in OCIs which is why we haven't done as well as Western in the last couple of years but that would be a ridiculous claim because I know nothing about the situation with the student body at Western. 

[Chef Justice]

33 minutes ago, QMT20 said:

I read this after I made my original post. Until there are statistics about how many students actually apply to the recruit from each school, this is a non-verifiable claim that anyone can make to explain low recruitment numbers at their school. As I noted, none of the three overall medalists in my year at Queen's applied for Toronto big law in the 2L recruit. I could use that observation to claim that the top students from Queen's aren't interested in OCIs which is why we haven't done as well as Western in the last couple of years but that would be a ridiculous claim because I know nothing about the situation with the student body at Western. 

I agree. I wanna believe my friend and give Ryerson the benefit of the doubt, but, it's definitely non-verifiable. I am curious in the next few years to see if Ryerson's 2L recruit numbers will rise as they establish themselves. Eh only time will tell.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Chef Justice

[reaperlaw]

21 hours ago, CleanHands said:

I'm always skeptical of "a lot of students opt out of OCIs" comments about the student bodies of any law school in Canada.

Granted, I went to a very corporate-focused school and BigLaw OCI jobs were the prize as far as the vast majority of students were concerned. But even in that context, at a school that statistically performs well at OCIs, there were a lot of students who were vocally BigLaw-or-bust in 1L only to suddenly say to people "I had the chance to think about it and I'm more interested in small firm practices..." after 1L grades came back (surely coincidentally...) and before OCI applications were due.

Anyways unless someone can offer statistics demonstrating otherwise I think it's a fair assumption that differences in recruit outcomes between schools are not attributable to significantly more competitive candidates at one school compared to the other opting out.

You said it yourself regarding the explanation for your skepticism — you went to a corporate-focused school. Can you really say you're in a knowledgeable position?

But this skepticism, at least regarding Ottawa, is as unfounded as the assumption that Toronto interest is broadly similar between the Southern Ontario schools and non-Southern Ontario schools. Factually, it just makes sense a larger percentage of Ottawa students opt out than any other school in Ontario, from it being 450 kilometres away, it's significant French-language program that caters to the Ottawa and Montreal legal markets, a large focus on public interest/government careers, etc.

If anything, you should be skeptical of the assumption that the percentage of students who apply to Toronto is broadly uniform. That is a Toronto-centric viewpoint that was promulgated significantly on the old version of this forum (I am sure it is true here as well), mostly from people who went to the Southern Ontario corporate-focused schools where the focus is on Toronto recruit.

[CleanHands]

9 minutes ago, reaperlaw said:

-Snip-

Context.

The post I responded to referenced a Ryerson student claiming that lots of Ryerson students opt out of the recruits, as an explanation for why Ryerson placement numbers weren't better relative to Ottawa's.

[reaperlaw]

21 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

Context.

The post I responded to referenced a Ryerson student claiming that lots of Ryerson students opt out of the recruits, as an explanation for why Ryerson placement numbers weren't better relative to Ottawa's.

Very true; context is important. Indeed, you didn't quote any particular post, and you said "I'm always skeptical of "a lot of students opt out of OCIs" comments about the student bodies of any law school in Canada." Would it not be reasonable to conclude you were talking more broadly than just Ryerson?

[Louis St. Laurent]

On 3/28/2022 at 5:33 PM, CleanHands said:

I'm always skeptical of "a lot of students opt out of OCIs" comments about the student bodies of any law school in Canada.

Granted, I went to a very corporate-focused school and BigLaw OCI jobs were the prize as far as the vast majority of students were concerned. But even in that context, at a school that statistically performs well at OCIs, there were a lot of students who were vocally BigLaw-or-bust in 1L only to suddenly say to people "I had the chance to think about it and I'm more interested in small firm practices..." after 1L grades came back (surely coincidentally...) and before OCI applications were due.

Anyways unless someone can offer statistics demonstrating otherwise I think it's a fair assumption that differences in recruit outcomes between schools are not attributable to significantly more competitive candidates at one school compared to the other opting out.

They were talking about opting out of Toronto OCI's specifically though, not just OCI's in general. There is a fairly large Ottawa OCI recruit that hires a lot of Ottawa students.

I don't think it's unfair to say that a lot of Ottawa students opt out of the Toronto OCI recruit to stay in Ottawa by choice, although I obviously don't have data to back that up.