Help me choose! UBC vs. McGill?

[BziBurner]

Hey everyone, I had a previous post about Dal vs McGill (which helped knock one out), but I'm now down to deciding between my final 2 offers and I'm completely torn. Context: I want to go into academia and become a law professor (My interests are around critical property law/ art law/ cultural heritage law -- very niche). But, becoming a judge would also be a dream of mine.

Program/Curriculum - McGill Com/Civ degree is unique, and their teaching approach is more theory based which I'm into. I think knowing both legal traditions is valuable, but I don't plan in practicing in QC. UBC does have more indigenous law opportunities and a few profs I'm really interested in, but is more standard in terms of law school curriculum.

French - I'm not super confident in my French but I'm a low-intermediate French speaker/listener and an intermediate reader/writer. I'm most nervous about this, as I'm not sure if I'd be setting myself up at a disadvantage when it comes to following lecture, working in legal clinics in community, striving for Editor in Chief positions, etc.

Tuition - McGill is much cheaper than UBC but both have a a lot of scholarship possibilities

City - I much prefer Vancouver over Montreal, but Montreal is significantly cheaper.  Also, With McGill option, I think more doors are open broadly (nationally + internationally) but I think I'd like to settle in BC after school.

Any thoughts are helpful 🙂

[Ramesses]

UBC - you prefer the city and you know the language. You would be too busy struggling with the language compared to your peers to get any value out of the program. Also, most profs do practice for a little while before going back to school to get their LLM and PhD, so UBC would be better for you if you do not plan to practice in Quebec. Oh and UBC being more standard would be good since I imagine you would want to teach at a more standard school eventually.

[CleanHands]

55 minutes ago, BziBurner said:

I want to go into academia and become a law professor (My interests are around critical property law/ art law/ cultural heritage law -- very niche). But, becoming a judge would also be a dream of mine.

Your aspirations involve two different unicorn careers. Either is plausibly achievable but a remote possibility regardless of which school you go to. A career in academia will be virtually impossible unless you achieve exceptional grades at either school (and thus are able to pursue clerkships, top tier LLM/PhD programs, etc). A judicial appointment will not be possible unless you have a long and distinguished (and/or politically connected) career as a lawyer (which you don't appear to have any interest in). Having UBC vs McGill on your resume will be almost a non-factor in either event.

Decide based on whether your preference to live in Vancouver is worth the cost in your mind, because this decision will have virtually no impact on your career goals.

Edited April 19, 2022 by CleanHands

[GreyDude]

(Full disclosure: I'm awaiting a response from McGill).

McGill's program is unique. I find it really attractive, myself. However, if you don't think you'll ever use the Civil Law side of it, then there is a lot to be said for a program focused on what you think you will actually use. Also, the way you describe the UBC program/faculty, you sound more taken by it, though I'm sure that you would benefit from either place. If you like the more academic approach of McGill's program, that's not nothing. And again, we agree.

Also, if McGill has admitted you, then you likely have the 'passive bilingualism' requirement that they look for, or at least they believe you do. I'm told that most first year students end up having to take at least one class given in French, and that most classes require a lot of readings in French, but I'm thinking that you will likely be OK from that point of view, because I'm also told that it is possible to get through the program with pretty marginal French (even though the more comfortable you are in both languages, the better it is). Now, living in Montreal, you could work to improve your language skills. That would depend on your commitment level. It would also be a function of where you choose to live, and where and with whom you choose to socialize.

I agree with @CleanHands on the question of choosing which city you prefer. I personally love Montreal and would prefer to live here over Vancouver, even if it were the more expensive place of the two. So this is a question that you have to answer in your way. Me, I would go with my heart, unless forced to go with my wallet.

I don't think either place will give you a degree that will make it possible to follow an academic path. It's the the school you choose for your graduate work that will do that.  I also don't think that you stand a greater chance of becoming a judge by going to one or the other of these two excellent schools. I'll bet you have a 'gut feeling' about which one you should choose. In this kind of choice, your gut is likely to be right.

Edited April 19, 2022 by GreyDude

[Philosophy]

Definitely McGill! 

[CleanHands]

4 minutes ago, Philosophy said:

Definitely McGill! 

Do elaborate on why this is such a "definite" choice when the OP prefers Vancouver, doesn't want to practice in QC, and would prefer to settle in BC after graduating.

Edited April 19, 2022 by CleanHands

[ccq35]

As a current McGill 2L: 

2 hours ago, Ramesses said:

You would be too busy struggling with the language compared to your peers to get any value out of the program.

I entirely disagree with this. I know many current McGill students who have laughably bad French; students find a way to do well without full bilingual capability.

56 minutes ago, GreyDude said:

Also, if McGill has admitted you, then you likely have the 'passive bilingualism' requirement that they look for, or at least they believe you do. I'm told that most first year students end up having to take at least one class given in French, and that most classes require a lot of readings in French, but I'm thinking that you will likely be OK from that point of view, because I'm also told that it is possible to get through the program with pretty marginal French (even though the more comfortable you are in both languages, the better it is). Now, living in Montreal, you could work to improve your language skills. That would depend on your commitment level. It would also be a function of where you choose to live, and where and with whom you choose to socialize.

This is much more representative of the reality of bilingualism at McGill. @BziBurner, if you do choose to accept an offer here, French will not be a serious concern, although you should definitely work to improve your French skills in order to make the most of your degree/time in Montreal. 

2 hours ago, Ramesses said:

Also, most profs do practice for a little while before going back to school to get their LLM and PhD, so UBC would be better for you if you do not plan to practice in Quebec.

McGill students are entirely capable of landing jobs outside of Quebec, where they would never use their civil law training. In fact, the McGill brand makes its students at least decently competitive, and opens doors (e.g. to New York) that might otherwise be closed. 

The transsystemic nature of McGill's dual program should not be overlooked for the value it could provide re: academic aspirations. Exposure to both of Canada's dominant legal traditions (plus integrated Indigenous legal traditions) provides students with an enhanced ability to think critically about Canadian law, and conceptualize legal issues in ways that other jurists cannot (at least not without extra study). 

[CleanHands]

9 minutes ago, ccq35 said:

The transsystemic nature of McGill's dual program should not be overlooked for the value it could provide re: academic aspirations. Exposure to both of Canada's dominant legal traditions (plus integrated Indigenous legal traditions) provides students with an enhanced ability to think critically about Canadian law, and conceptualize legal issues in ways that other jurists cannot (at least not without extra study). 

This reads like McGill marketing material. lol

None of that will matter in the slightest if one is an average student.

I do think it really needs to be emphasized every time an applicant posts here that they want to pursue legal academia (especially if that is a primary goal and not secondary to actual interest in being a lawyer) that that will virtually require them to be near the top of a curve compromised of smart and motivated people. And that a significant majority of 0Ls who want to pursue that aren't going to end up in any position to do so. So one needs to consider carefully what their alternative career path will look like.

Perhaps what you're referring to gives top McGill grads some marginal edge for academic positions over top UBC grads? I don't know, so I won't try to refute that. But I think any broad statements about the value of any Canadian JD program for a career in legal academia needs to come with some very hefty caveats attached to avoid being misleading.

Bottom line for me is that since the OP has no interest in practicing in QC and wants to live in BC, when considering alternative career options if academia doesn't pan out (which it most likely won't), UBC obviously puts them in a better position for the sort of life and career they want. And some arguable marginal benefit if OP is able to pass a number of huge hurdles first is a really dubious point in McGill's favour.

[ccq35]

If you need to be near the top of a curve comprised of smart and motivated people either way, I don't understand why an arguable marginal benefit is such a dubious point. Sure, it might be hard to break into academia, but if transsystemia even helps a little bit, it should be included as a factor to consider. Sure, it might actually be more useful once you're a professor than during the process of becoming a professor (or maybe it actually is more useful during the process of getting a masters/doctorate?) but I fail to see how understanding both common and civil law is anything less than a plus. 

[Renerik]

19 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

I don't know, so I won't try to refute that. But I think any broad statements about the value of any Canadian JD program for a career in legal academia needs to come with some very hefty caveats attached to avoid being misleading.

To be fair, I just looked at Oz, UofA, USask, and UBC's faculty profiles and there doesn't appear to be significantly more UofT/McGill/UBC alums than graduates from less prestigious Canadian schools. Most* have LLMs from fancy schools though. 

Still, CH is right, you shouldn't put all your eggs in the academia/judge basket. Consider working for the UN or ICC as plan Bs.

[Philosophy]

1 hour ago, CleanHands said:

Do elaborate on why this is such a "definite" choice when the OP prefers Vancouver, doesn't want to practice in QC, and would prefer to settle in BC after graduating.

Haha I wrote it in a joking manner because I've publicly posted on this site about how I'm still waiting for UBC to get back to me... Apologies for the confusion! 

[Whist]

4 hours ago, BziBurner said:

critical property law/ art law/ cultural heritage law

I'm digressing from the main point here here, but what on earth is critical property law? (I could be out of the loop but I can't find any reference to such a term and I've never heard it.) I assume art law means you want something related to intellectual property... What do you mean by cultural heritage law? The only references I can find from a quick search are related to Indigenous law, is that what you mean? If so, asking which school has better options for Indigenous law would get you clearer answers. 

Edit: found a reference to critical property in thermodynamics. I'm just gonna assume that's not whatever thing you meant.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Whist

[Electricity]

26 minutes ago, Whist said:

I'm digressing from the main point here here, but what on earth is critical property law?

I’m not entirely sure how to define it either. All I know is that it’s brainwashing our kids and we have to stop it.

[Patient0L]

2 hours ago, Philosophy said:

Haha I wrote it in a joking manner because I've publicly posted on this site about how I'm still waiting for UBC to get back to me... Apologies for the confusion! 

Concur. 💀 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Patient0L

[BziBurner]

Wow, thank you all so much for the comments. A career in academia or the judiciary are definitely unicorn pursuits, but we do our best. I have a masters already but plan to get an LLM or Phd afterwards, so lots of schooling ahead anyways. Both schools definitely have a lot to offer. I do wonder, if I ever want to move back to ON, if Mcgill then would've made an easier transition back to ON. 

On the note about critical property law to @Whist and @Electricity; It's under the lens of critical legal studies/race theory. Basically looking at elements of race, colonization, capitalism, etc. tied to the function and emergence of property law/ownership.

Cultural heritage law (or referred to as Cultural Property law) deals with tangible and intangible cultural property (artwork, artifacts, etc). It works with preservation, repatriation, trades, etc. This is very much at the intersection of intellectual property/international law. Like I said, very niche, but an interest of mine. 

 

[Patient0L]

@Whist @BziBurner

Art law is a thing:

https://www.cbabc.org/BarTalk/Articles/2015/February/Features/Art-Law-in-Canada

From my experience in NYC, the term is used frequent in the context of legal issues related to the visual arts market. It’s an industry with highly specific business practices / related criminal activities (ie, authentication, provenance, forgeries, theft of cultural property), that wouldn’t be obvious to someone who more broadly works with IP or entertainment law. Columbia Law School has an elective called Art Law.

If you are interested in art law you would probably enjoy this publication: 

https://lawandarts.org

All the more reason OP should go to McGill! There isn’t much of an an art world in Canada, at least you would have a better chance of working in NYC. In the public sector, the SDNY has a task force devoted to art crimes. 

OP, if you are interested in repatriation (which I gather from your post, and the fact that you are approaching this from a Canadian perspective), have you thought about UVic? They run a course called Cultural Property… and have the whole JID program!

🧑🏼‍🎨

 

 

[BziBurner]

24 minutes ago, Patient0L said:

@Whist @BziBurner

Art law is a thing:

https://www.cbabc.org/BarTalk/Articles/2015/February/Features/Art-Law-in-Canada

From my experience in NYC, the term is used frequent in the context of legal issues related to the visual arts market. It’s an industry with highly specific business practices / related criminal activities (ie, authentication, provenance, forgeries, theft of cultural property), that wouldn’t be obvious to someone who more broadly works with IP or entertainment law. Columbia Law School has an elective called Art Law.

If you are interested in art law you would probably enjoy this publication: 

https://lawandarts.org

All the more reason OP should go to McGill! There isn’t much of an an art world in Canada, at least you would have a better chance of working in NYC. In the public sector, the SDNY has a task force devoted to art crimes. 

OP, if you are interested in repatriation (which I gather from your post, and the fact that you are approaching this from a Canadian perspective), have you thought about UVic? They run a course called Cultural Property… and have the whole JID program!

🧑🏼‍🎨

 

 

Thanks for this and the publication! Yes, art law isn't a super big thing in Canada -- much more in the States/UK, and I'll likely do my LLM either in the states or UK. Although, there are a few firms and opportunities both in Vancouver & Montreal. I've worked in a few galleries as a research assistant, so I'm keeping this track open as a plan B to the professor goal. 

[Whist]

58 minutes ago, BziBurner said:

Wow, thank you all so much for the comments. A career in academia or the judiciary are definitely unicorn pursuits, but we do our best. I have a masters already but plan to get an LLM or Phd afterwards, so lots of schooling ahead anyways. Both schools definitely have a lot to offer. I do wonder, if I ever want to move back to ON, if Mcgill then would've made an easier transition back to ON. 

On the note about critical property law to @Whist and @Electricity; It's under the lens of critical legal studies/race theory. Basically looking at elements of race, colonization, capitalism, etc. tied to the function and emergence of property law/ownership.

Cultural heritage law (or referred to as Cultural Property law) deals with tangible and intangible cultural property (artwork, artifacts, etc). It works with preservation, repatriation, trades, etc. This is very much at the intersection of intellectual property/international law. Like I said, very niche, but an interest of mine. 

 

I’m sure you’ve already given it thought, but a PhD in another program may also be a worthwhile consideration. Not that you couldn’t try and pursue your interests in an LLM/SJD, but during your JD you will touch on very little of it and that’s three years of “practical” degree between you and your next “academic” degree. I’ve heard McGill is more theory based learning but wouldn’t know for myself how that looks and you seem to prefer UBC. At most common law schools, you might have an elective or two on niche topics like this, but by and large you’ll be spending your time not studying that niche.
 

Others have already elaborated on the difficulties of getting a job in academia. If you can’t get into academia, or art law as a practitioner, what more accessible type of law would you be willing to practice in? Hope for the best and do what you can to put your best foot forward, but there’s a large possibility you’ll have to do something else.  

[Pecan Boy]

I wish I had the confidence of someone who has yet to spend a single day in law school but is already planning where they're gonna go for their LLM

[Pantalaimon]

15 hours ago, CleanHands said:

 A judicial appointment will not be possible unless you have a long and distinguished (and/or politically connected) career as a lawyer (which you don't appear to have any interest in).

Can't academics get appointed to the bench? Our faculty lost a fair number of profs when the feds and province finally got around to dealing with judicial vacancies.

[CleanHands]

14 minutes ago, Pecan Boy said:

I wish I had the confidence of someone who has yet to spend a single day in law school but is already planning where they're gonna go for their LLM

You act like that's ridiculous, but half the applicants on this forum want to be a law professor, judge or "international human rights lawyer." Your level-headedness is rarer than their hubris.

As much as I have contempt for BigLaw I've come to develop relative respect for applicants who say that's what they want to do because at least that's very realistically achievable.

[Patient0L]

1 hour ago, BziBurner said:

Thanks for this and the publication! Yes, art law isn't a super big thing in Canada -- much more in the States/UK, and I'll likely do my LLM either in the states or UK. Although, there are a few firms and opportunities both in Vancouver & Montreal. I've worked in a few galleries as a research assistant, so I'm keeping this track open as a plan B to the professor goal. 

I’ve worked in the field (not as a lawyer, but in other capacities, including academic) going on 20 years, so DM me if you have any questions.

Also, this is a really great program. Not degree granting, but a way to explore these interests:

http://www.artlawprogram.com

 

Good luck with your decision!

[pastmidnight]

Honestly, I don't think there is a 'wrong' choice here. Both are top schools, both are significantly cheaper than other law schools, and both will provide you with an array of opportunities students at other schools won't be able to access as easily. I don't think going to one over the other is going to significantly harm or enhance your chances at a career in academia. 

If I were in your shoes this would be a situation where I'd probably just flip a coin. Heads one school, tails the other. Whichever it lands on you have to go to. Flip the coin. Which side does your gut want it to land on? 

[BziBurner]

Thank you all! Definitely have a tough decision ahead, but like @pastmidnight, there is no wrong choice so that's quite comforting to keep in mind. I think my gut is leaning towards UBC, but I'll sit on it for a few days. @Patient0L I'll definitely be in touch about the field!