I have an M.A., a PhD, and a bad undergraduate record

[tad_ekam]

Hello. 

I want to go to law school. I have a PhD in a social sciences discipline from an R1 institution in the US. It's reasonably prestigious. I have an M.A. from a Canadian university. And I have a pretty bad undergraduate record (3.04 cgpa, 3.09 L2, 3.4 B3). I graduated with a bachelor's in 2004, so this was a while ago.

The question is, should I bother applying to law school in Canada? Will my graduate education matter? If so, how much? I advanced on the basis of some professors knowing me & seeing some talent--and I did succeed. But I'm reading that Canadian law schools emphasise undergraduate education. I know I can write my application around these grades by stressing my subsequent educational & professional successes, but I also know this might not outweigh a pretty bad undergraduate record.

BTW I probably won't qualify for mature student status. I miss out on the 5-year minimum by about 13 months because I worked while finishing my PhD.

Thank you!

Edited April 19, 2022 by tad_ekam

[LMP]

No one can speak to the issue with any real certainty but I feel as though your advanced education when coupled with a strong LSAT score and a compelling personal statement (perhaps addressing the low undergrad marks and explaining how you've more than demonstrated an academic aptitude) will carry you through. 

 

Also, I believe some schools (I think UofA or UofC?) take your graduate degree marks into account. But you'd have to double check that. 

[ramoj]

If you have over 5 years of work experience, you can apply Mature at Toronto. For Queens/Western, you can apply mature, too. Not certain of their pre-reqs for that category. UBC you can apply discretionary.

Utilize there categories and leverage all the additional attributes you have post-undergrad to see what your chances are like.

By chance, do you have an LSAT score?

Anecdotally: I scored 153 and 156 on Oct/Jan LSATs. GPA 3.77. Not that great. People told me I had no chance. But was accepted at Ottawa and Osgoode. 

[saltshaker111]

U of A will take all graduate courses into account as long as they're graded. I'm 90% sure U of C only takes undergrad courses into account, but they do consider undergrad courses completed after your first degree was conferred, so technically you could take more courses now to bump up your undergrad GPA if you're interested in that school.

Edited April 19, 2022 by saltshaker111

[tad_ekam]

3 minutes ago, LMP said:

No one can speak to the issue with any real certainty but I feel as though your advanced education when coupled with a strong LSAT score and a compelling personal statement (perhaps addressing the low undergrad marks and explaining how you've more than demonstrated an academic aptitude) will carry you through. 

 

Also, I believe some schools (I think UofA or UofC?) take your graduate degree marks into account. But you'd have to double check that. 

Thank you for your reply. I haven’t taken the LSAT yet, but I’ve started studying. I have yet to do a practice test. But based on my prior GRE score (99th percentile verbal & quant) I feel confident about the LSAT. Of course nothing’s a given. But still. Confident.

Family circumstances mean I can’t leave Ontario/Québec to go to school. But I’ll look into the Alberta schools, thank you!

3 minutes ago, jomar said:

If you have over 5 years of work experience, you can apply Mature at Toronto. For Queens/Western, you can apply mature, too. Not certain of their pre-reqs for that category. UBC you can apply discretionary.

Utilize there categories and leverage all the additional attributes you have post-undergrad to see what your chances are like.

By chance, do you have an LSAT score?

Anecdotally: I scored 153 and 156 on Oct/Jan LSATs. GPA 3.77. Not that great. People told me I had no chance. But was accepted at Ottawa and Osgoode. 

Thank you for your response! I do actually have 5+ years of work experience… concurrent with my PhD though. I think I’ll actually have to ask the programs themselves how that might work. Would applying as a mature student be advantageous for me? 

No LSAT score yet. But I’m confident about it (I wrote a bit about that above). 

 

4 minutes ago, saltshaker111 said:

U of A will take all graduate courses into account as long as they're graded. I'm 90% sure U of C only takes undergrad courses into account, but they do consider undergrad courses completed after your first degree was conferred, so technically you could take more courses now to bump up your undergrad GPA if you're interested in that school.

Well now everyone’s convinced me to start looking out west. It’s still unlikely (I have a kid & grandparents are all in Ontario/Québec) but I’ll definitely look.

[sandibay]

My cGPA is 3.1, L2 is 3.3, and my LSAT was 157 and I got into UofC, still waiting on UofA. I have an MA and 4 years of full time work experience which I think really carried my application, along with a strong personal statement. If I thought I actually had a chance of getting in this year, I would have applied to schools in Ontario too.

A PhD is a significant soft, especially considering how long it's been since your undergrad. I think it's totally possible for you to get into a school in Ontario if you have a strong LSAT score, which I did not have. So yes, go for it!

Edited April 19, 2022 by shay

[bagelfan]

I'm not in the exact same boat as you buy thought I'd share.

PhD in 2018. Overall GPA ~ 3.25, L2 ~ 3.56. LSAT 166.

Was accepted to UVic, Dal, ucalgary, UAlberta and waiting to hear from UBC. Last year I only applied to UVic and was waitlisted, I took 3 classes since then and for A/A+.

My suggestion is to take some undergrad courses in the interim to show you're serious and have improved. I have also heard that schools look positively on reapplying so don't get too low if you don't get in for your first round of applications.

Good luck! Lmk if you have questions.

[tad_ekam]

54 minutes ago, shay said:

My cGPA is 3.1, L2 is 3.3, and my LSAT was 157 and I got into UofC, still waiting on UofA. I have an MA and 4 years of full time work experience which I think really carried my application, along with a strong personal statement. If I thought I actually had a chance of getting in this year, I would have applied to schools in Ontario too.

A PhD is a significant soft, especially considering how long it's been since your undergrad. I think it's totally possible for you to get into a school in Ontario if you have a strong LSAT score, which I did not have. So yes, go for it!

I’m now enthusiastic about seeing how I do on the LSAT. I remember I hated studying for the GRE at first, then loved it. And so far the practice I’ve done for the LSAT has been enjoyable. 

[tad_ekam]

25 minutes ago, bagelfan said:

I'm not in the exact same boat as you buy thought I'd share.

PhD in 2018. Overall GPA ~ 3.25, L2 ~ 3.56. LSAT 166.

Was accepted to UVic, Dal, ucalgary, UAlberta and waiting to hear from UBC. Last year I only applied to UVic and was waitlisted, I took 3 classes since then and for A/A+.

My suggestion is to take some undergrad courses in the interim to show you're serious and have improved. I have also heard that schools look positively on reapplying so don't get too low if you don't get in for your first round of applications.

Good luck! Lmk if you have questions.

Your post led me to look for UVic entry stats. This here table is very instructive:

https://www.uvic.ca/law/assets/docs/admissfinaid/LSAT-GPA Demographic Chart.pdf

No one with a CGPA at my level was admitted in 2020. But those who were admitted with low grades had a high LSAT. 

Unfortunately I don’t have time to take any courses between now & November. Maybe next year!

[tad_ekam]

Well, for anyone still following this conversation: I've done some more research & recalculated my estimated GPA. My L2 is actually 3.61, and there's a clear improvement between my first two and last two years. I messed up the calculation because the grade estimator at lawapplicants.ca starts at 2002, at my first undergraduate year was 1999 (I am old). 

I'm going to contact schools about how exactly they calculate the 5 years non-academic experience. I have more than 5 years of non-academic work under my belt, but a lot of it happened while I was writing & editing my dissertation. Plus my dissertation defence was delayed by the pandemic, so my PhD was prolonged by about a year. Something tells me I can qualify as a mature student.

As for taking more undergraduate courses... that'd be fun and I'm not against it but as I said I don't have time between now & next fall to take any. And I hesitate to make too big a deal of this but... I've designed & taught my own undergraduate courses. By now I've taught (or assisted in teaching) thousands of undergraduates. I'm not sure a few A's in courses outside my specialty (I'm assuming that'd be necessary--my publication record probably shows I have competence within my specialty) will prove much more than my teaching record does. But I do have to respect the advice I've been given here, especially seeing as extra courses seem to have helped some people.

At any rate, thank you everyone for your advice. 

[NowOrNever]

17 minutes ago, tad_ekam said:

Well, for anyone still following this conversation: I've done some more research & recalculated my estimated GPA. My L2 is actually 3.61, and there's a clear improvement between my first two and last two years. I messed up the calculation because the grade estimator at lawapplicants.ca starts at 2002, at my first undergraduate year was 1999 (I am old). 

I'm going to contact schools about how exactly they calculate the 5 years non-academic experience. I have more than 5 years of non-academic work under my belt, but a lot of it happened while I was writing & editing my dissertation. Plus my dissertation defence was delayed by the pandemic, so my PhD was prolonged by about a year. Something tells me I can qualify as a mature student.

As for taking more undergraduate courses... that'd be fun and I'm not against it but as I said I don't have time between now & next fall to take any. And I hesitate to make too big a deal of this but... I've designed & taught my own undergraduate courses. By now I've taught (or assisted in teaching) thousands of undergraduates. I'm not sure a few A's in courses outside my specialty (I'm assuming that'd be necessary--my publication record probably shows I have competence within my specialty) will prove much more than my teaching record does. But I do have to respect the advice I've been given here, especially seeing as extra courses seem to have helped some people.

At any rate, thank you everyone for your advice. 

What are your Masters and PhD GPAs?

From UofT:

https://www.law.utoronto.ca/jd-admissions-policies

In borderline cases, a very strong performance in a graduate program may overcome modest weaknesses in an undergraduate record, but will not usually overcome an undergraduate record which is otherwise uncompetitive. An applicant's academic record and LSAT score (or scores) are considered together and in context. That is, an applicant with a superior academic record may be admitted with less competitive LSAT results. Similarly, an applicant with superior LSAT results may be admitted with a less competitive academic record.

You have a 3.4 B3 and L2 3.61.

If you can score 170+ on LSAT you should get into some Ontario law schools including UofT, Osgoode, Western, Queen's, Ottawa and Ryerson(this one is hard to predict though).

[theroaringbadger]

29 minutes ago, tad_ekam said:

Well, for anyone still following this conversation: I've done some more research & recalculated my estimated GPA. My L2 is actually 3.61, and there's a clear improvement between my first two and last two years. I messed up the calculation because the grade estimator at lawapplicants.ca starts at 2002, at my first undergraduate year was 1999 (I am old). 

I'm going to contact schools about how exactly they calculate the 5 years non-academic experience. I have more than 5 years of non-academic work under my belt, but a lot of it happened while I was writing & editing my dissertation. Plus my dissertation defence was delayed by the pandemic, so my PhD was prolonged by about a year. Something tells me I can qualify as a mature student.

As for taking more undergraduate courses... that'd be fun and I'm not against it but as I said I don't have time between now & next fall to take any. And I hesitate to make too big a deal of this but... I've designed & taught my own undergraduate courses. By now I've taught (or assisted in teaching) thousands of undergraduates. I'm not sure a few A's in courses outside my specialty (I'm assuming that'd be necessary--my publication record probably shows I have competence within my specialty) will prove much more than my teaching record does. But I do have to respect the advice I've been given here, especially seeing as extra courses seem to have helped some people.

At any rate, thank you everyone for your advice. 

With your masters and PHD i can definitely see you at Dal for sure. See which category fits you best. 

[tad_ekam]

25 minutes ago, NowOrNever said:

What are your Masters and PhD GPAs?

From UofT:

https://www.law.utoronto.ca/jd-admissions-policies

In borderline cases, a very strong performance in a graduate program may overcome modest weaknesses in an undergraduate record, but will not usually overcome an undergraduate record which is otherwise uncompetitive. An applicant's academic record and LSAT score (or scores) are considered together and in context. That is, an applicant with a superior academic record may be admitted with less competitive LSAT results. Similarly, an applicant with superior LSAT results may be admitted with a less competitive academic record.

You have a 3.4 B3 and L2 3.61.

If you can score 170+ on LSAT you should get into some Ontario law schools including UofT, Osgoode, Western, Queen's, Ottawa and Ryerson(this one is hard to predict though).

Thank you!

MA: 4.0; PhD: 3.9. Plus publications, teaching, editing, professional service. And a second career as a charity fundraiser. 

I understand why the grades matter, but it is funny to find myself back in a world where I'm worried about it. 

26 minutes ago, theroaringbadger said:

With your masters and PHD i can definitely see you at Dal for sure. See which category fits you best. 

Adding Dal to the list of schools to research, thank you!

[theroaringbadger]

2 minutes ago, tad_ekam said:

Thank you!

MA: 4.0; PhD: 3.9. Plus publications, teaching, editing, professional service. And a second career as a charity fundraiser. 

I understand why the grades matter, but it is funny to find myself back in a world where I'm worried about it. 

Adding Dal to the list of schools to research, thank you!

Dal takes your most recent grades. So you should definitely be in. In other words. PHD counts. L2 or your entire uni career (undergrad onwards) whichever is better 

[NowOrNever]

4 minutes ago, tad_ekam said:

Thank you!

MA: 4.0; PhD: 3.9. Plus publications, teaching, editing, professional service. And a second career as a charity fundraiser. 

I understand why the grades matter, but it is funny to find myself back in a world where I'm worried about it. 

Adding Dal to the list of schools to research, thank you!

You should be able to score 170+ on LSAT according to your GRE.

With a strong PS you will be good for UofT and Osgoode, plus Queen's, Western and Ottawa.

[Patient0L]

19 hours ago, tad_ekam said:

I haven’t taken the LSAT yet, but I’ve started studying. I have yet to do a practice test. But based on my prior GRE score (99th percentile verbal & quant)

I also scored well on the GRE and had a VERY rude awakening when it came to the LSAT. It’s about 50x harder. GRE logic games are laughably easy. I’m not saying this to discourage, rather the opposite. Don’t get disheartened if it takes you a few months, rather than a couple of weeks, to build up a decent LSAT score. Law school application process is longer than regular grad school in general.

[tad_ekam]

14 minutes ago, Patient0L said:

I also scored well on the GRE and had a VERY rude awakening when it came to the LSAT. It’s about 50x harder. GRE logic games are laughably easy. I’m not saying this to discourage, rather the opposite. Don’t get disheartened if it takes you a few months, rather than a couple of weeks, to build up a decent LSAT score. Law school application process is longer than regular grad school in general.

I've noticed it's more difficult. Back in my day (15 years ago) GRE quant was laughable. But you're right, I'm definitely going to take months to practice. Depends on how my diagnostic test goes (have some time to do that today). 

Edited April 20, 2022 by tad_ekam

[Patient0L]

19 minutes ago, tad_ekam said:

I've noticed it's more difficult. Back in my day (15 years ago) GRE quant was laughable. But you're right, I'm definitely going to take months to practice. Depends on how my diagnostic test goes (have some time to do that today). 

How easy the GRE was compared to the LSAT + the amount of time that lapsed between the two made me think that I had gone through some kind of age-related cognitive decline. Turns out it’s just way harder. 

I had the same issue with undergrad grades not being at the same level as my graduate work and the frustration with the fact that I was told that my grad work was pretty much worthless when it comes to law school admissions. It’s not totally true. I spoke to admissions from one of the schools that admitted me, and it turns out that they did take some of my graduate grades into account. They added in some of the 300 & 400 level courses I had taken post-undergrad into my GPA calculation which gave me a bit of a boost.

 

It’s not as grim as it seems. Good luck!

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Patient0L

[CleanHands]

A percentile is a percentile though, right? If one test is objectively harder than another, it's harder for everyone in the pool in aggregate. I don't really get how this is relevant when scores are relative to other test takers.

[Patient0L]

28 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

A percentile is a percentile though, right? If one test is objectively harder than another, it's harder for everyone in the pool in aggregate. I don't really get how this is relevant when scores are relative to other test takers.

Different, much bigger, pool of test takers. It’s also not really that important for admissions so I’m imagining many people don’t put in the same amount of effort. The school I went to had a 70th percentile GRE score “requirement” for incoming grad students. Beyond that it had no bearing on admissions. The same school’s law faculty has a 172 median LSAT score. If you’re a law school ambitious type + verbally inclined + good at math, you will probably kill at the GRE.

 

(Not to minimize OPs 99% accomplishment!!)