1L Grades, NY Recruit, OCIs

[ronaldraegan]

Hello,

After meeting with my CDO, and doing some research, I’ve heard roughly similar thing when it comes to grades & OCI’s – that a B+ or a “high B+ average” is good to get a lot of interviews and garner interest.

But I’d imagine that for top tier firms, and New York firms doing OCI’s, they would look for even higher 1L grades, more EC’s work exp etc. So my question is, what type of grades (and EC/experiences) are these firms looking for? What is a “High” B+ average? I know theres more to it than grades but I just want to manage my expectations and would like to know if I’m at all competitive for it…

I ask this because I currently have grades as follows 3 A’s, 4 B+’s and 2 B’s, and am considering doing a MBA at schulich (I go to Osgoode) if it would give me a better shot for these firms. If anyones been successful at the NY recruit or some of these firms I would love to hear your opinion/advice. (Unfortunately, I’ve found that my research and what the CDO’s told me hasn’t really been all that useful…) Thanks in advance!

[Kashi]

You're probably fine to get a few interviews. 

Don't do an additional degree just for a chance of landing at firms in a specific city lol. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

Your grades are likely too low to succeed in the NY recruit from Osgoode. NY firms generally want an A-average. 

You’ll be fine for all but the most selective firms in Toronto. 

A JD/MBA would obviously help for both recruits, but you’ll have to decide whether it’s worth the additional cost and time. 

[Ben]

10 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Your grades are likely too low to succeed in the NY recruit from Osgoode. NY firms generally want an A-average. 

You’ll be fine for all but the most selective firms in Toronto. 

A JD/MBA would obviously help for both recruits, but you’ll have to decide whether it’s worth the additional cost and time. 

What are the most selective firms in the city? This info can be hard to come by.

to the OP: I had good experiences just asking summer students from my school who worked at firms I liked what kind of grades they had. Not everyone will want to give an exact answer and some won’t want to answer at all, but some people will just tell you. I certainly wouldn’t hold that question against anyone. It can be genuinely hard to tell what firms are looking for without doing that  

 

[historicaladvantage]

48 minutes ago, ronaldraegan said:

Hello,

After meeting with my CDO, and doing some research, I’ve heard roughly similar thing when it comes to grades & OCI’s – that a B+ or a “high B+ average” is good to get a lot of interviews and garner interest.

But I’d imagine that for top tier firms, and New York firms doing OCI’s, they would look for even higher 1L grades, more EC’s work exp etc. So my question is, what type of grades (and EC/experiences) are these firms looking for? What is a “High” B+ average? I know theres more to it than grades but I just want to manage my expectations and would like to know if I’m at all competitive for it…

I ask this because I currently have grades as follows 3 A’s, 4 B+’s and 2 B’s, and am considering doing a MBA at schulich (I go to Osgoode) if it would give me a better shot for these firms. If anyones been successful at the NY recruit or some of these firms I would love to hear your opinion/advice. (Unfortunately, I’ve found that my research and what the CDO’s told me hasn’t really been all that useful…) Thanks in advance!

Without an abnormally stellar resumé, these grades are not likely to be good enough for the NY recruit. The MBA would certainly help though. 

Edited June 22, 2021 by historicaladvantage

[BlockedQuebecois]

27 minutes ago, Ben said:

What are the most selective firms in the city? This info can be hard to come by.

Morgans, mainly

[QueensDenning]

I talked to my CDO about the NY recruit (at queens, so I assume NY firms might go deeper into the class at OS) and they said don’t bother applying if your not on dean’s list. 

[Dussy]

8 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

I talked to my CDO about the NY recruit (at queens, so I assume NY firms might go deeper into the class at OS) and they said don’t bother applying if your not on dean’s list. 

Can anyone speak to going to NY from Queens? I am on the DL and have been thinking about it, but conventional wisdom on LS was they only hire U of T, Oz, or McGill

[BlushAndTheBar]

8 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

I talked to my CDO about the NY recruit (at queens, so I assume NY firms might go deeper into the class at OS) and they said don’t bother applying if your not on dean’s list. 

Side note: it seems like you need to be on Deans List for a lot of things... to do the NY recruit, to get jobs at top top firms in Toronto, to get clerkships, to get into the JD/MBA out of 1L, I even heard from a professor you need As to moot. Surely there are not enough people on the Deans List to fill all of these positions? Or is it that people from the Deans List from every school compete amongst themselves? 

[Dussy]

6 minutes ago, BlushAndTheBar said:

Side note: it seems like you need to be on Deans List for a lot of things... to do the NY recruit, to get jobs at top top firms in Toronto, to get clerkships, to get into the JD/MBA out of 1L, I even heard from a professor you need As to moot. Surely there are not enough people on the Deans List to fill all of these positions? Or is it that people from the Deans List from every school compete amongst themselves? 

I am by no means an expert, but there are simply too many student positions at even "top top firms" to fill them all with people on the DL who also want to work there. I have also heard that getting into the JD/MBA program at Queens is not extraordinarily difficult after 1L, but I do not have any first-hand information. In terms of clerkships, I do think it is accurate to say that for appellate level or higher, DL is a pre-req.

If I am wrong about any of this, somebody please correct me.

[CleanHands]

6 minutes ago, BlushAndTheBar said:

Side note: it seems like you need to be on Deans List for a lot of things... to do the NY recruit, to get jobs at top top firms in Toronto, to get clerkships, to get into the JD/MBA out of 1L, I even heard from a professor you need As to moot. Surely there are not enough people on the Deans List to fill all of these positions? Or is it that people from the Deans List from every school compete amongst themselves? 

Most of that is bullshit.

You don't need to be a dean's lister to get a trial level clerkship, get into a JD/MBA program out of 1L, to moot, or to work at the majority of Bay Street OCI firms.

NYC, appellate-level clerkships and the very most competitive firms are basically the only positions where it's more or less a requirement.

[BlushAndTheBar]

6 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

Most of that is bullshit.

You don't need to be a dean's lister to get a trial level clerkship, get into a JD/MBA program out of 1L, to moot, or to work at the majority of Bay Street OCI firms.

NYC, appellate-level clerkships and the very most competitive firms are basically the only positions where it's more or less a requirement.

This is comforting to hear. It's nice to know i'm not crazy!

[SlytherinLLP]

1 minute ago, BlushAndTheBar said:

Side note: it seems like you need to be on Deans List for a lot of things... to do the NY recruit, to get jobs at top top firms in Toronto, to get clerkships, to get into the JD/MBA out of 1L, I even heard from a professor you need As to moot. Surely there are not enough people on the Deans List to fill all of these positions? Or is it that people from the Deans List from every school compete amongst themselves? 

There are positions for which exceptional marks are generally prerequisites such as appellate clerking or New York.

I know mark anxiety gets worse and worse as the recruit approaches.

So long as you beat the curve to some extent (top 30%ish for most national Bay Street firms) your marks really start to taper off in importance.

After that other things come into play like: demonstrating meaningful interest in the particular area of law (as well as some indication that you took the time to research the firm) in your cover letter and interviews, showing that you gave your career some serious thought, networking with lawyers and students (student committee has asked articling students at my firm to recommend students so this actually does happen), having some measure of law school involvement (moots, clinics, journals) etc. 

Interesting work experience factors in too.

Some combination of the above should suffice. Also don't submit an application that looks like it was prepared by a baboon. 

 

[CleanHands]

Just now, BlushAndTheBar said:

This is comforting to hear. It's nice to know i'm not crazy!

Glad to hear. Unfortunately there is a ton of noise in law school and on the forums here and people like to big themselves up and make everything seem even more competitive than it already is. It's competitive and stressful enough for everyone without that nonsense.

Anecdotally I know multiple people with basically average grades (I have seen their transcripts) who got jobs at Blakes and comparable firms (albeit from one of the more competitive schools). And yet on the old forums there were multiple posts acting like only the best and brightest could land such positions.

While the old forums were a great resource in many respects I felt like that difficulty of attaining various positions in the formal recruits was often significantly overstated there. Hopefully we can offer a more realistic take this time around.

[QMT20]

30 minutes ago, BlushAndTheBar said:

Side note: it seems like you need to be on Deans List for a lot of things... to do the NY recruit, to get jobs at top top firms in Toronto, to get clerkships, to get into the JD/MBA out of 1L, I even heard from a professor you need As to moot. Surely there are not enough people on the Deans List to fill all of these positions? Or is it that people from the Deans List from every school compete amongst themselves? 

As some people have already said, you need to be dean's list to do the NY recruit and to be competitive for appellate level clerkships at Queen's. People I know who got trial clerkships had a GPA around 3.4. 

For mooting, the committee that decides which moot teams to put you on do care about grades but it's not the only consideration. Most of the people who get on the Gale, Laskin, and Wilson have been dean's listers but it's not a pre-requisite and there's been people who were solidly above average but who had a great tryout that got onto those teams. There are other moot teams that are less competitive to make, such as the Immigration Moot which just started this year and you certainly don't need great grades to do that. 

For most Bay Street firms, you'll be competitive if you have a B+ average from Queen's, though of course, the higher your grades the better. It's rare for people who have over a 3.5 not to land whereas I know lots of people who landed and didn't land in the 3.3-3.5 range. I also know solid B students who landed at Bay Street firms and dean's listers who are still looking for articling so grades aren't purely determinative. 

For JD/MBA there are solid B students who got into the program. I'm sure the competitiveness varies from year to year given the limited number of spots. But the people I know in the program are not near the top of the JD class. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by QMT20

[Pantalaimon]

21 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

While the old forums were a great resource in many respects I felt like that difficulty of attaining various positions in the formal recruits was often significantly overstated there. Hopefully we can offer a more realistic take this time around.

I don't really agree, most of the "I have a B average will I get OCIs" posts were answered by saying you might get something like 1-4, depending on resume strength, and from there it's a crapshoot. That's not even top 30% of the class.

[johnny.rahmbo]

Is there any hope of someone from Windsor having a shot at the NY recruit? I'm top 10% and have some good work experience (i think). Im aware its hard enough for Oz and U of T students to get in but just wondering if its worth even applying coming from Windsor. 

[wallsunflower]

22 minutes ago, johnny.rahmbo said:

Is there any hope of someone from Windsor having a shot at the NY recruit? I'm top 10% and have some good work experience (i think). Im aware its hard enough for Oz and U of T students to get in but just wondering if its worth even applying coming from Windsor. 

You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take. Even if others tell you your chances are slim to none, I’d encourage you to try. 

[ronaldraegan]

Thanks everyone! this has been really helpful! 🙂