Toronto but not Corporate Biglaw

[WesternGuy]

Hi everyone,

I can't be alone in wanting both the fulfilling experience of securing a dream job in the recruit, but without boring corporate law work and 60+ hour work weeks. 

Are there (relatively) high paying firms in the recruit that allow you to be downtown Toronto but not work yourself to death? I'm not a business guy but being surrounded by Western students really makes you feel corporate Biglaw is the goal sometimes. 

I feel like civil litigation or family or something would be cool to try, or maybe a firm that allows you to rotate through several interesting areas.

Thanks for any help!

[mistertubby]

5 minutes ago, WesternGuy said:

Are there (relatively) high paying firms in the recruit that allow you to be downtown Toronto but not work yourself to death?

certainly if such a job existed, someone would have already discovered it 

[Jaggers]

All the big firms do tons of work that is not boring corporate law work.

[Diplock]

Let me give you the best all-purpose advice you're going to get on this topic. You will make compromises in settling on a legal career. Inevitably so. The mistake many students are prone to is that they try to avoid making any compromises at all, which means that instead of making intentional, well-considered compromises they end up falling into jobs where their compromises are simply handed to them. Which often means they have sacrificed things they really can't live without, in favor of things they don't really need. And that's my three sentence diagnosis of why there's so much dissatisfaction in this field.

Right now, you're asking for a job that pays very well, where you don't have to work too much, where you get to do something ambiguously "cool," but where you are also part of the identifiably most "successful" sort of legal practice at a big firm downtown, etc. etc. etc. Your post reads like the definition of the problem I laid out, above.

I'm not going to tell you which of your goals and priorities are most important or should be, to you. All I'll say is that you need to get over the delusion that you're somehow going to find a job that comes with every good thing imaginable and no down sides. That's ridiculous, and hopefully you're smart enough to realize that.

Take careful inventory of your values and aspirations. Figure out what you're willing to give up on, accept less of, and what you're willing to compromise to get it. And figure out what is non-negotiably important to you. Then concentrate on that. And if you get a little more of some things you don't absolutely need along the way, that's great. But either way, at least you won't box yourself into a situation you'll come to regret.

Good luck.

[Kibitzer]

Probably not what you have in mind (not a "firm"), and not high paying, but certainly good pay - Ontario MAG. Plenty of civil lit, some ability to move around branches and try different practice areas.

[WesternGuy]

1 hour ago, mistertubby said:

certainly if such a job existed, someone would have already discovered it 

Obviously I wouldn't be looking for $2k/week if I'm not working crazy hours. I'm talking like $1k/week ballpark would be good pay to me.

[WesternGuy]

58 minutes ago, Kibitzer said:

Probably not what you have in mind (not a "firm"), and not high paying, but certainly good pay - Ontario MAG. Plenty of civil lit, some ability to move around branches and try different practice areas.

Thanks, I'll look into this 🙂

[WesternGuy]

1 hour ago, Diplock said:

Let me give you the best all-purpose advice you're going to get on this topic. You will make compromises in settling on a legal career. Inevitably so. The mistake many students are prone to is that they try to avoid making any compromises at all, which means that instead of making intentional, well-considered compromises they end up falling into jobs where their compromises are simply handed to them. Which often means they have sacrificed things they really can't live without, in favor of things they don't really need. And that's my three sentence diagnosis of why there's so much dissatisfaction in this field.

Right now, you're asking for a job that pays very well, where you don't have to work too much, where you get to do something ambiguously "cool," but where you are also part of the identifiably most "successful" sort of legal practice at a big firm downtown, etc. etc. etc. Your post reads like the definition of the problem I laid out, above.

I'm not going to tell you which of your goals and priorities are most important or should be, to you. All I'll say is that you need to get over the delusion that you're somehow going to find a job that comes with every good thing imaginable and no down sides. That's ridiculous, and hopefully you're smart enough to realize that.

Take careful inventory of your values and aspirations. Figure out what you're willing to give up on, accept less of, and what you're willing to compromise to get it. And figure out what is non-negotiably important to you. Then concentrate on that. And if you get a little more of some things you don't absolutely need along the way, that's great. But either way, at least you won't box yourself into a situation you'll come to regret.

Good luck.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I'll say the things I don't care about are firm size or notoriety, and I'm definitely willing to compromise pay for hours. For example, $1k for 40 hours seems great to me, I don't expect top pay. Sorry if I came off delusional. Still, I probably needed the reality check, so thanks again. I'll think about what you've said.

[PePeHalpert]

There are a lot of small to mid-size litigation boutiques in downtown Toronto that do interesting civil and commercial litigation work.  Most will not participate in the 2L recruit so you will have to do some outreach to get interviews.  If the hours are lower than Biglaw, you should safely assume the pay is lower as well.  A high-paying, low stress, super interesting job is a bit of a unicorn. You may need to temper your expectations. 

[Twenty]

Echoing the above, I have read that insurance defense tends to have lower targets (equating to 50-60 hour work weeks). There was this article (though a while ago) that stated Steiber Berlach's target is 1600. (Link: https://www.pressreader.com/canada/national-post-latest-edition/20071003/282114927203747)

As for salary expectations, I know of a Toronto commercial and insurance litigation firm with an advertised 100k salary for a 5ish year call. Granted, I'd expect their billable target to be lower than Big Law. 

That said, it's not like you can yeet your responsibilities once you hit target. Target is a minimum. Consequently, a lawyer told me that one firm in particular (not insurance defense, but commercial litigation) has an "unofficial" target of 2000+, despite having an advertised lower official target. Another firm (also commercial litigation, but not in TO) has a 1500 target but has so much work coming in that their associates effectively work similar hours to Big Law (after bonus is factored in, pay is equal at least). 

However, I still think there is a difference between firms. There are more accommodating firms that genuinely try to be "lifestyle" firms and then there are sweatshops. But how does a student figure out exactly which firm is which, especially when firms can misrepresent themselves? I don't really know, aside from asking around. Everything seems to be a black box.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Twenty

[TheCryptozoologist]

On 6/22/2021 at 10:55 PM, WesternGuy said:

Hi everyone,

I can't be alone in wanting both the fulfilling experience of securing a dream job in the recruit, but without boring corporate law work and 60+ hour work weeks. 

Are there (relatively) high paying firms in the recruit that allow you to be downtown Toronto but not work yourself to death? I'm not a business guy but being surrounded by Western students really makes you feel corporate Biglaw is the goal sometimes. 

I feel like civil litigation or family or something would be cool to try, or maybe a firm that allows you to rotate through several interesting areas.

Thanks for any help!

Lots of boutiques and smaller law firms are in downtown Toronto since they concentrate around the courthouses/tribunals/admin boards. Almost all of Ontario's specialized tribunals are also on one street downtown, so you'll find everything from criminal law/labor law/etc to smaller bars like mental health or child protection law.