Is B+ avg a competitive grade for top NY/CA big law if lateral from Bay st?

[Geworfenheit]

Received my grades recently and found out that my overall grade is a low B+ avg. Previously when I did the OCI and landed my bay st job, I had a high B+ avg grade (which was composed of almost half As and half Bs). Later, I just got more Bs & only a few A and B+ and together they led to my overall low B+ avg. (But, fortunately, I never got any C+/C.)

My concern is that I don't know how important would the grade be when you lateral. Tbh, I am not sure if I will lateral to the States in the future but I just want the door to be open for me. Therefore, I was wondering if a B+ avg is a competitive grade for top NY/CA big law if I lateral as a Bay st firm associate?

Thanks in advance!

[KOMODO]

Will you make different decisions based on whether it is or is not competitive? You can't go back in time and change things now, so does it matter?

Unless you're planning to make a fundamentally different decision about something soon based on this information, my general advice would be not to worry about it. You probably can't predict whether you'll still want to lateral once you're called to the bar, and you definitely can't predict the state of the market at that time. It used to be that associates needed top notch grades to lateral, and that wasn't the case at all last year when US firms (especially in CA) were desperate for anyone with even a bit of experience. The market could be better or worse by the time it matters to you, so focus on summering/articling and let the rest of the pieces fall into place later.

[Geworfenheit]

10 hours ago, KOMODO said:

Will you make different decisions based on whether it is or is not competitive? You can't go back in time and change things now, so does it matter?

Unless you're planning to make a fundamentally different decision about something soon based on this information, my general advice would be not to worry about it. You probably can't predict whether you'll still want to lateral once you're called to the bar, and you definitely can't predict the state of the market at that time. It used to be that associates needed top notch grades to lateral, and that wasn't the case at all last year when US firms (especially in CA) were desperate for anyone with even a bit of experience. The market could be better or worse by the time it matters to you, so focus on summering/articling and let the rest of the pieces fall into place later.

Thank you! You're right it's kinda pointless for me to ask this questions at this stage and I'd better just focus on my articling and hireback for now. There're too many factors affecting the lateral market and I cannot make a precise prediction based solely on my grade. I guess I was asking more out of curiosity and for peace of mind. 

If you don't mind, I would like to know how is the pre-pandemic lateral market of Toronto? I have a close friend with similar overall grade (like low B+ avg as well) and she will start articling this August at a smaller shop on bay st (or maybe not really smaller but just less established/prestigious compared with some bigger ones). She would like to lateral to a better/bigger firm (like a sister firm) after she's called to the bar or when she's a mid-level associate and wonder if her grade would hold her back?

[KOMODO]

As a lawyer gains experience, their grades matter less and less, so the importance will diminish with each passing year. A B+ average of any type is very unlikely to hold a lawyer back from lateralling within Toronto if they otherwise have experience that matches the requirements of the job.  I would recommend that anyone just starting at a place and already considering a lateral move try to make the most of their first/current experience and re-evaluate once they have completed the articling term or once they've spent a year at the firm (unless the conditions are completely abusive, a total mismatch for the person's interests, etc.). Once you and your colleague begin practicing, you may find that the attractiveness of moving to a higher prestige firm matters less, and/or you might find that you love the team and work you already have and want to stay.

Edited May 31, 2022 by KOMODO
grammar

[Geworfenheit]

28 minutes ago, KOMODO said:

As a lawyer gains experience, their grades matter less and less, so the importance will diminish with each passing year. A B+ average of any type is very unlikely to hold a lawyer back from lateralling within Toronto if they otherwise have experience that matches the requirements of the job.  I would recommend that anyone just starting at a place and already considering a lateral move try to make the most of their first/current experience and re-evaluate once they have completed the articling term or once they've spent a year at the firm (unless the conditions are completely abusive, a total mismatch for the person's interests, etc.). Once you and your colleague begin practicing, you may find that the attractiveness of moving to a higher prestige firm matters less, and/or you might find that you love the team and work you already have and want to stay.

I really appreciate your advice! We hadn't really thought about it that way, and we were indeed simply attracted by the prestige & higher pay (in the States). I actually have had a very nice summer experience at my firm so it's true I may forgo the lateral idea after I start to practice.

In fact, this conversation was started by another friend of ours who also has a low B+ overall grade (woohoo). Unlike me and the friend I mentioned above, our other friend would article at a national firm in a non-Toronto office while her child and husband still stay in Toronto (they decided it's the best family arrangement). Because of her family situation, she'll have to lateral back to Toronto as soon as possible and therefore she's worried about the effect of the grade on her lateral. Hope a B+ average is also unlikely to hold her back from lateralling to Toronto.

[C_Terror]

More senior lawyers can chime in here, but as a junior, I found that the firm you're in, and the work/deals you've done is more indicative of your success of lateralling to the states. I've been told (and I can be wrong) that certain US firms will only hire from a few top Canadian shops.

[KOMODO]

1 hour ago, Geworfenheit said:

I really appreciate your advice! ...

...this conversation was started by another friend of ours who also has a low B+ overall grade ....

No problem at all 🙂

By the way, I really don't think the average firm hiring a lateral is looking this closely at grades. A B+ is pretty much a B+. When I review transcripts from time to time as my department is hiring laterals, I just kind of scan them and think "mostly As" or "mix of As and Bs" or "mostly Bs", etc, if I even think about it at all. I would be pretty surprised to find anyone getting out a calculator or really thinking through the average of those grades. And even once I spend the 1 second determining whether it's a mix of As and Bs or mostly Bs, that has very minimal to no impact on my recommendation or decision. It really only matters at the extremes, like we might give more credence to someone with straight As, or feel doubtful about someone with more Cs, but where people are "normal" for our purposes, we care a lot more about their experience, writing style, interview skills, etc. 

[Geworfenheit]

4 hours ago, KOMODO said:

No problem at all 🙂

By the way, I really don't think the average firm hiring a lateral is looking this closely at grades. A B+ is pretty much a B+. When I review transcripts from time to time as my department is hiring laterals, I just kind of scan them and think "mostly As" or "mix of As and Bs" or "mostly Bs", etc, if I even think about it at all. I would be pretty surprised to find anyone getting out a calculator or really thinking through the average of those grades. And even once I spend the 1 second determining whether it's a mix of As and Bs or mostly Bs, that has very minimal to no impact on my recommendation or decision. It really only matters at the extremes, like we might give more credence to someone with straight As, or feel doubtful about someone with more Cs, but where people are "normal" for our purposes, we care a lot more about their experience, writing style, interview skills, etc. 

Thanks for letting me know about how lawyers read grades! That's really reassuring.

We have our year 1/2/3 average grades listed on our official transcripts so no need for readers to do the calculation themselves. I have a B+ avg for each academic year listed on my transcript. It's just when I received my transcript, I thought there are toooo many Bs. Then I did the calculation myself and found out my B+ is located on the low end of the B+ range. So it's good to know the lawyers won't personally do the calculation again like I did lol

[Geworfenheit]

5 hours ago, C_Terror said:

More senior lawyers can chime in here, but as a junior, I found that the firm you're in, and the work/deals you've done is more indicative of your success of lateralling to the states. I've been told (and I can be wrong) that certain US firms will only hire from a few top Canadian shops.

I also heard about that and in my (aka a naive student's) opinion it's true. Luckily, I am at one of the top Canadian shops and there have been people constantly moving from our firm to top US firms in the past two years. So when I got my grade and chatted about (potential) lateraling, I was like "yeah I'll be able to generate a good deal list in this good firm but will my grade hurt me if I want to make the move?"

[dgen]

Hi - as stated above, the more experience you have, the less grades matter. I do want to note that each firms do have their grade cut offs (set for different schools), firms they recognize and a handful of firms are picky with respect to the law school you graduated from.

Providing you some data:

I recently lateralled to a V5 in CA with slightly higher GPA half a year ago. I came from a top firm in Canada and a west coast law school. 

Past two years: Agreed that for the past two years, lateralling to a top US firm was pretty easy as long as you met a cut off grade and had decent experience (with CA being slightly more lenient as to their selection of applicants but it was honestly a wash). I do note that there are a handful of top US firms that don't really look to Canadian laterals whatsoever, and some would only look if you are the top of your class.

What I did: I really sold my experience as a mid-level (3rd year) by being able to manage M&A and financing deals on my own, with little to no supervision, while being ambitious and wanting to tackle a more complex market. I had several multiple billion dollar deals and complex transactions under my belt and was able to speak to the fact that I can generally do the tasks that they expect from me (in addition to responsibilities that were beyond my year level that I had assumed due to so many people leaving the past few years). 

I note that it is easier for mid-levels/seniors (that take some years off) to lateral then it is for juniors. 

Market Slowdown: However, market has slowed down significantly and as a result, so has the lateral market. 

I was told by HR that they're basically not hiring anymore (I believe many firms that took Canadian laterals overhired) and that if they do, they're only looking at "peer firms" now. Plus, they increase their grade cut off. To be honest, if i applied now, I probably wouldn't have been a successful applicant. I was one of the last few laterals that came in. I am more spooked about being fired if we head into a recession (I would argue we are already in one). Note that firms in the US are much more profit maximizers then Canadian firms and that jobs here are much less secure than in Canada.

Conclusion: Heavily dependent on the market. I don't think you'll be competitive in this environment but regardless, it's hard to lateral as a 1st-2nd year outside of a really hot market like last year with median grades. Who knows what the market will look like in two years when you have a bit more experience which you can use to leverage.

[Geworfenheit]

On 6/7/2022 at 5:21 AM, dgen said:

Hi - as stated above, the more experience you have, the less grades matter. I do want to note that each firms do have their grade cut offs (set for different schools), firms they recognize and a handful of firms are picky with respect to the law school you graduated from.

Providing you some data:

I recently lateralled to a V5 in CA with slightly higher GPA half a year ago. I came from a top firm in Canada and a west coast law school. 

Past two years: Agreed that for the past two years, lateralling to a top US firm was pretty easy as long as you met a cut off grade and had decent experience (with CA being slightly more lenient as to their selection of applicants but it was honestly a wash). I do note that there are a handful of top US firms that don't really look to Canadian laterals whatsoever, and some would only look if you are the top of your class.

What I did: I really sold my experience as a mid-level (3rd year) by being able to manage M&A and financing deals on my own, with little to no supervision, while being ambitious and wanting to tackle a more complex market. I had several multiple billion dollar deals and complex transactions under my belt and was able to speak to the fact that I can generally do the tasks that they expect from me (in addition to responsibilities that were beyond my year level that I had assumed due to so many people leaving the past few years). 

I note that it is easier for mid-levels/seniors (that take some years off) to lateral then it is for juniors. 

Market Slowdown: However, market has slowed down significantly and as a result, so has the lateral market. 

I was told by HR that they're basically not hiring anymore (I believe many firms that took Canadian laterals overhired) and that if they do, they're only looking at "peer firms" now. Plus, they increase their grade cut off. To be honest, if i applied now, I probably wouldn't have been a successful applicant. I was one of the last few laterals that came in. I am more spooked about being fired if we head into a recession (I would argue we are already in one). Note that firms in the US are much more profit maximizers then Canadian firms and that jobs here are much less secure than in Canada.

Conclusion: Heavily dependent on the market. I don't think you'll be competitive in this environment but regardless, it's hard to lateral as a 1st-2nd year outside of a really hot market like last year with median grades. Who knows what the market will look like in two years when you have a bit more experience which you can use to leverage.

Thank you so much for sharing your first-hand experience! I really appreciate all the insights and information.

I heard about the US firms' GPA cutoff before but was curious how our Canadian grades would be converted using the US standard (like some school do A-/B- but others like mine only have A+/B+). Nevertheless, I now understand a Canadian B+ avg alone will render me kinda uncompetitive in a normal market unless I have a few years under my belt and I am able to sell myself.

In fact, I was not sure if I will try to lateral to the US in the future. My plan was that I'll wait until I am a mid-level (3rd or 4th year) and see if I would like to (1) lateral to a top US firm and gather some experience before I come back to bay st; (2) lateral to a top US firm and then stay there as a counsel or find an in-house position in the US; or (3) not lateral at all and just gun for partnership at my current top Canadian firm. I guess no matter what route I am gonna take, I will have to work hard and try my best to become a stellar associate first.

[boxesoforanges]

Does anyone know what kinds of grades Tory's looks for?

[BlockedQuebecois]

14 minutes ago, boxesoforanges said:

Does anyone know what kinds of grades Tory's looks for?

Whatever grades Upper Canada College gave you will be fine for Torys, assuming you’re an above average law student. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by BlockedQuebecois

[MapleLeafs]

56 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Whatever grades Upper Canada College gave you will be fine for Torys, assuming you’re an above average law student. 

I would’ve perceived this as a joke before, but funny thing is there does seem to be that sort of correlation. 

[Rashabon]

2 hours ago, MapleLeafs said:

I would’ve perceived this as a joke before, but funny thing is there does seem to be that sort of correlation. 

They didn't pick the name out of a hat.