JD/MBA: Advice, thoughts, recommendations?

[Lizardking]

Hey everyone, I know there was some good threads on the old site about this but with those lost I'm hoping to start a new conversation about this.

I'm heading to an Ontario school this year and have been thinking about doing the JD/MBA program there. I'm only in the JD right now, but a few weeks ago I spoke to admissions for the joint program and they said with my stats I'd likely get in, however I would have to apply early September as there is a relatively small cohort. Given I have to make the decision in a few months I was hoping to get some advice from the wisdom here. I formatted it weird but I was trying to avoid a wall of text.
 

To give context to my decision I think these points are relevant:

• I am interested in working in BigLaw and in business law generally. However I realize as an 0L this might change.
• I have no business background currently. Social Sciency BA and Government work experience.
• The MBA I am looking at is incredibly pricey so I would probably only go if I got a decent scholarship, which I still need to clarify with the program.
• An MBA program interests me quite a bit, the courses and experiences seem really fascinating regardless of jobs.
• I want to be a lawyer, so I'm not interested in just an MBA.
• One extra year of school doesn't really bother me right now.

Some questions I have are:

• Did you find the JD MBA to specifically help you in OCIs for Toronto?
• Would the degree help in recruits in smaller cities or in smaller firms outside of BigLaw?
• Did you find that it offered you more exit opportunities?
• Do you think that the classes provided useful enough skills to warrant taking them outside of just the name recognition of an MBA?

Edited June 24, 2021 by Lizardking

[Avatar Aang]

You need to tell us the school you are looking into because the brand name of your MBA program matters. 

The only JD/MBA program that will have a noticeable effect on your career prospects is U of T's JD/MBA. A significant portion of these students land Biglaw jobs in the US and non-legal roles in investment banking, consulting, technology, etc. No other JD/MBA program in Canada compares.

Osgoode JD/MBA is not as highly valued as U of T's JD/MBA program. It is much easier to get into and accepts more students. Schulich MBA is also not considered a top tier MBA by most people working in the industry anymore. Almost every single JD/MBA I know from Osgoode that landed Biglaw jobs had very good grades in the JD program. The ones that did not have good grades in the JD program did not land Biglaw jobs for the most part, even if they were in the JD/MBA. Some employers may be ok with a B average if you're a JD/MBA student but you will still get fewer interviews. 

Queen's and Western do not accept many JD/MBAs. I think it is less than 5 students per year. Ivey and Queen's business schools also have a great reputation so these JD/MBA programs would be worth pursuing. Stikeman Elliott has hired a few Queen's JD/MBAs in the past.

The JD/MBA programs at Windsor and Ottawa are not really worth it. Ottawa's program may help you land Biglaw jobs outside of Bay Street though, especially in the Ottawa market, but there is not a lot of hiring going on in these smaller markets. 

Why would you need a JD/MBA to work at a smaller firm? These positions are not particularly competitive to get. The most competitive legal jobs to get are government and public interest positions, top litigation boutiques, and Biglaw firms. If you go to a top law school, the latter isn't too difficult to land either as U of T places 50% of their students in Biglaw and 20% in New York, and Osgoode places 30-35% in Biglaw as well. 

Exit opportunities means opportunities to pursue other careers when you leave your current employer. When you get to the stage where you are looking for exit options, it is your work experience that people will look at and not where you went to school or the letters after your name. 

Every JD/MBA student has told me that the MBA is a fluff degree and a joke compared to the JD. They give everyone B+ and higher grades in an MBA and many courses are introductory business courses. You don't do an MBA for the actual learning, but for the brand name and networking opportunities.

In conclusion, a JD/MBA may be a small advantage in the formal Biglaw recruitment process, but you need to still perform well in the JD program to be a competitive candidate. Not all JD/MBA and MBA programs are created equally either, as the name of your MBA matters, and the name of your JD school matters although to a much lesser extent in the legal field.  

[historicaladvantage]

Linking my comment to this same question on the Osgoode JD/MBA on another post. Hopefully this is moderately helpful. 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by historicaladvantage

[historicaladvantage]

2 hours ago, Avatar Aang said:

You need to tell us the school you are looking into because the brand name of your MBA program matters. 

The only JD/MBA program that will have a noticeable effect on your career prospects is U of T's JD/MBA. A significant portion of these students land Biglaw jobs in the US and non-legal roles in investment banking, consulting, technology, etc. No other JD/MBA program in Canada compares.

Respectfully, I don't agree with this. Osgoode JD/MBA graduates fairly frequently get hired at NYC firms whereas regular JD candidates seldom get hired at NYC firms. Also, Osgoode JD/MBA candidates were overall very successful in the 1L OCI recruit compared to regular JD candidates. Finally, having a JD/MBA from Osgoode gives you a small leg up in the 2L OCI recruit too. I can't speak for other schools, but certainly Osgoode's JD/MBA inflates your job opportunities to a noticeable degree. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by historicaladvantage

[Avatar Aang]

3 minutes ago, historicaladvantage said:

Respectfully, I don't agree with this. Osgoode JD/MBA graduates fairly frequently get hired at NYC firms whereas regular JD candidates seldom get hired at NYC firms. Also, Osgoode JD/MBA candidates were overall very successful in the 1L OCI recruit compared to regular JD candidates. Finally, having a JD/MBA from Osgoode gives you a small leg up in the 2L OCI recruit too. I can't speak for other schools, but certainly Osgoode's JD/MBA inflates your job opportunities to a noticeable degree. 

https://ultravires.ca/2020/10/toronto-summer-2020-1l-recruitment-results/

According to this, the JD program does much better in the 1L recruit than the JD/MBA. 

I know JD/MBAs that went to New York and they probably could have done it with just a JD alone as their grades were in the top of the class in the JD portion. So I am not sure if correlation equals causation. 

Osgoode JD/MBA may give you a small leg up in the 2L OCI recruit, but only if you performed above average in the JD program. 

[historicaladvantage]

5 minutes ago, Avatar Aang said:

https://ultravires.ca/2020/10/toronto-summer-2020-1l-recruitment-results/

According to this, the JD program does much better in the 1L recruit than the JD/MBA. 

I know JD/MBAs that went to New York and they probably could have done it with just a JD alone as their grades were in the top of the class in the JD portion. So I am not sure if correlation equals causation. 

Osgoode JD/MBA may give you a small leg up in the 2L OCI recruit, but only if you performed above average in the JD program. 

These stats are likely skewed, as Osgoode regular JD applicants for 1L firm positions far outnumber the number of JD/MBA applicants (there is a much lower percentage of JD/MBA candidates overall compared to regular JD candidates). Also, in the previous years listed below in the chart you've linked, you can see the Osgoode hiring numbers of JD/MBA students was also significantly higher. Though only 1 hire this year from the JD/MBA at Osgoode is oddly low, it does appear to be an outlier and unlikely to be repeated. 

The correlation/causation argument re: New York is an interesting one, but the fact is their is a correlation irrespective of the theoretical notion of grades overpowering the MBA, so it wouldn't be completely inaccurate to say Osgoode JD/MBA candidates do well in the NYC recruit. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by historicaladvantage

[Lizardking]

19 hours ago, Avatar Aang said:

You need to tell us the school you are looking into because the brand name of your MBA program matters. 

I appreciate that detailed response, I'm going to try and be as anonymous as I can but I'm going to one of the other three from UoT that you mentioned were good programs, Osgoode, Queens, or Western. Its interesting that it would only provide a small advantage for Biglaw, I was kinda thinking that since I have no business background, an MBA might help if I am competing against other JDs with a finance background (or similar). I realize that for small firms it wouldn't be necessary, but I imagine it would help getting started into business related practices even outside of Biglaw? 

[Avatar Aang]

50 minutes ago, Lizardking said:

I appreciate that detailed response, I'm going to try and be as anonymous as I can but I'm going to one of the other three from UoT that you mentioned were good programs, Osgoode, Queens, or Western. Its interesting that it would only provide a small advantage for Biglaw, I was kinda thinking that since I have no business background, an MBA might help if I am competing against other JDs with a finance background (or similar). I realize that for small firms it wouldn't be necessary, but I imagine it would help getting started into business related practices even outside of Biglaw? 

A JD/MBA is completely unnecessary for anyone wanting to practice law. Most lawyers on Bay Street/Biglaw don't have JD/MBAs or business backgrounds. Employers care mostly about your performance in your law degree and which school you went to. If you are going to Osgoode, Queen's, or Western, you will not need a JD/MBA to get into any corporate firm as these schools have good reputations. An MBA is not the equivalent of someone having a prior business degree and work experience in their field. It is not the equivalent of a CPA or CFA. It's a different story if you did the MBA, worked for a few years, then went to law school, but the JD/MBA is a condensed program which offers you no practical experience in the business field. 

[QMT20]

1 hour ago, Lizardking said:

I appreciate that detailed response, I'm going to try and be as anonymous as I can but I'm going to one of the other three from UoT that you mentioned were good programs, Osgoode, Queens, or Western. Its interesting that it would only provide a small advantage for Biglaw, I was kinda thinking that since I have no business background, an MBA might help if I am competing against other JDs with a finance background (or similar). I realize that for small firms it wouldn't be necessary, but I imagine it would help getting started into business related practices even outside of Biglaw? 

 

14 minutes ago, Avatar Aang said:

A JD/MBA is completely unnecessary for anyone wanting to practice law. Most lawyers on Bay Street/Biglaw don't have JD/MBAs or business backgrounds. Employers care mostly about your performance in your law degree and which school you went to. If you are going to Osgoode, Queen's, or Western, you will not need a JD/MBA to get into any corporate firm as these schools have good reputations. An MBA is not the equivalent of someone having a prior business degree and work experience in their field. It is not the equivalent of a CPA or CFA. It's a different story if you did the MBA, worked for a few years, then went to law school, but the JD/MBA is a condensed program which offers you no practical experience in the business field. 

I don't think it's fair to say that a JD/MBA offers no advantage for big law hiring. It's true that most lawyers don't have MBAs or any business background whatsoever but considering the fact that most law schools in Ontario graduate around 200 law students every year, and have maybe 5-20 JD/MBAs among those classes, it's not really surprising that most lawyers won't have an MBA. 

I would confidently say that at least at Queen's, the JD/MBA offers you a significant advantage for big law hiring. Everyone I know in the JD/MBA program was able to land at full service firms like Stikes, Osler, and Torys. Most of the people I know in the JD/MBA program are not top-JD students so whether they'd have been able to get the same job without the MBA is questionable. I know one person who is a straight B-student that struck out during the 2L recruit, added a year onto their degree by doing the JD/MBA, and then was able to land at a full service firm by doing the 2L recruit for a second-time. The only factor that seems to have changed in their application from one year the next was getting into the JD/MBA program. Additionally, in the 1L recruit some firms like BLG and Torys in the past have posted positions specifically looking for students in JD/MBA programs. Even though those positions are rare, only about 2-3 per year, you're not competing against that large of a pool of applicants since it's only open to JD/MBAs, and if you're JD-only then you wouldn't qualify to apply. 

Personally, I don't think there's a question whether JD/MBA gives you an advantage for big law hiring. There is a real question whether that advantage is worth it since you're adding a year onto your degree, you're paying more in tuition, and if you're a strong JD student then you can get the same opportunities without it. It seems from your original post that you are concerned with the extra tuition. Someone in another thread suggested reaching out to Queen's MBA program to see if you can get a scholarship to do the JD/MBA. According to that poster, they often give up to a 50% tuition reduction. I would imagine you'd be able to negotiate a bit with Schulich or Western to see if you can get the tuition down for their JD/MBAs, if you're at one of those schools instead. 

[boo]

As someone who is also considering this route (and has looked extensively into doing solely an MBA), I would say to stick to the JD program. Better to be a excellent performer in the JD program than middle of the pack in both. Additionally, you can always complete an MBA later in life (after gaining some years of work experience, and if you are feeling the desire to transition solely to a more business/corporate role and stop being a lawyer). The biggest benefits of the MBA are the network, so the school brand / alumni network should be a big driver in whether you decide to commit to it.

[historicaladvantage]

2 hours ago, boo said:

As someone who is also considering this route (and has looked extensively into doing solely an MBA), I would say to stick to the JD program. Better to be a excellent performer in the JD program than middle of the pack in both. Additionally, you can always complete an MBA later in life (after gaining some years of work experience, and if you are feeling the desire to transition solely to a more business/corporate role and stop being a lawyer). The biggest benefits of the MBA are the network, so the school brand / alumni network should be a big driver in whether you decide to commit to it.

It's not really realistic for most people to complete an MBA later in life after already have a law degree. Also the MBA most certainly provides additional professional credibility and hiring prospects especially early in your career. I wouldn't say it's a game changer but it helps, depending on which school you get the dual degree from. 

[boo]

3 hours ago, historicaladvantage said:

It's not really realistic for most people to complete an MBA later in life after already have a law degree. Also the MBA most certainly provides additional professional credibility and hiring prospects especially early in your career. I wouldn't say it's a game changer but it helps, depending on which school you get the dual degree from. 

I would disagree.

1) Life is long. You can easily complete an MBA in your 40s or 50s. Hypothetical career path: Big Law --> Inhouse counsel --> transition to mgmt role --> company offers you the ability to complete your MBA (they pay for some/all of bit, you return to the company post MBA)

2) Professional credibility will come in the form of experience. Hiring prospects may come via networking, but I mentioned that a strong alumni network would be a key reason to do an MBA

3) I don't see a correlation between early MBA's and career success, particularly once you remove your typical go-getter who went: top school --> top employer --> top MBA, and completed that all before the age of 30. Experience, expertise, and network trump the three extra letters on a business card.

[Avatar Aang]

6 hours ago, QMT20 said:

 

I don't think it's fair to say that a JD/MBA offers no advantage for big law hiring. It's true that most lawyers don't have MBAs or any business background whatsoever but considering the fact that most law schools in Ontario graduate around 200 law students every year, and have maybe 5-20 JD/MBAs among those classes, it's not really surprising that most lawyers won't have an MBA. 

I would confidently say that at least at Queen's, the JD/MBA offers you a significant advantage for big law hiring. Everyone I know in the JD/MBA program was able to land at full service firms like Stikes, Osler, and Torys. Most of the people I know in the JD/MBA program are not top-JD students so whether they'd have been able to get the same job without the MBA is questionable. I know one person who is a straight B-student that struck out during the 2L recruit, added a year onto their degree by doing the JD/MBA, and then was able to land at a full service firm by doing the 2L recruit for a second-time. The only factor that seems to have changed in their application from one year the next was getting into the JD/MBA program. Additionally, in the 1L recruit some firms like BLG and Torys in the past have posted positions specifically looking for students in JD/MBA programs. Even though those positions are rare, only about 2-3 per year, you're not competing against that large of a pool of applicants since it's only open to JD/MBAs, and if you're JD-only then you wouldn't qualify to apply. 

Personally, I don't think there's a question whether JD/MBA gives you an advantage for big law hiring. There is a real question whether that advantage is worth it since you're adding a year onto your degree, you're paying more in tuition, and if you're a strong JD student then you can get the same opportunities without it. It seems from your original post that you are concerned with the extra tuition. Someone in another thread suggested reaching out to Queen's MBA program to see if you can get a scholarship to do the JD/MBA. According to that poster, they often give up to a 50% tuition reduction. I would imagine you'd be able to negotiate a bit with Schulich or Western to see if you can get the tuition down for their JD/MBAs, if you're at one of those schools instead. 

I said the JD/MBA programs at Western and Queen's are worth pursuing in my original post, because I agree with everything you wrote here. However, consider the fact that Osgoode has over 20 JD/MBAs in a year (confirmed this with the annual reports). This is different than being in a cohort of less than 5 JD/MBAs at your school. Osgoode's class size is 300 students and there are 20-30 JD/MBAs a year, so employers care more about JD performance just because there are so many students.

If your goal is Biglaw/Bay Street, I would do a JD/MBA from McGill, U of T, Queen's, Western, and UBC in a heartbeat. I can't say the same about Osgoode JD/MBA, simply because I personally know too many JD/MBAs that struck out during the formal recruit. However, this may not be the case in all years. I do agree that a lot of people, especially lawyers, are going back to school to do MBAs after getting some work experience. I'm even seeing a lot of new calls going back and doing MBAs once they test the legal market and find it not to their liking. There are a lot of part-time, weekend, and 1 year MBA options so it is completely doable. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Avatar Aang

[BlockedQuebecois]

I would never advise someone to do a JD/MBA entering law school. It’s generally a huge expense, and I’m largely of the opinion it’s a racket. I have the same doors open to me that I would’ve had if I did a JD/MBA, and I’m much better off financially. 

The far more interesting question is whether the JD/MBA is worth it once you’ve done a year of law school. If you’re a mediocre law student and you want to work on Bay, a JD/MBA might open that door. If you’re a relatively strong student at Oz, a JD/MBA might also open the door to NYC big law. 

But until you know how you did in 1L, it’s speculative. 

[Ben]

4 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I would never advise someone to do a JD/MBA entering law school. It’s generally a huge expense, and I’m largely of the opinion it’s a racket. I have the same doors open to me that I would’ve had if I did a JD/MBA, and I’m much better off financially.

You couldn’t pay me to go to business school but aren’t you like the gold medalist at your school lol 

[Abella Swan]

On 6/25/2021 at 12:16 PM, QMT20 said:

 

I don't think it's fair to say that a JD/MBA offers no advantage for big law hiring. It's true that most lawyers don't have MBAs or any business background whatsoever but considering the fact that most law schools in Ontario graduate around 200 law students every year, and have maybe 5-20 JD/MBAs among those classes, it's not really surprising that most lawyers won't have an MBA. 

I would confidently say that at least at Queen's, the JD/MBA offers you a significant advantage for big law hiring. Everyone I know in the JD/MBA program was able to land at full service firms like Stikes, Osler, and Torys. Most of the people I know in the JD/MBA program are not top-JD students so whether they'd have been able to get the same job without the MBA is questionable. I know one person who is a straight B-student that struck out during the 2L recruit, added a year onto their degree by doing the JD/MBA, and then was able to land at a full service firm by doing the 2L recruit for a second-time. The only factor that seems to have changed in their application from one year the next was getting into the JD/MBA program. Additionally, in the 1L recruit some firms like BLG and Torys in the past have posted positions specifically looking for students in JD/MBA programs. Even though those positions are rare, only about 2-3 per year, you're not competing against that large of a pool of applicants since it's only open to JD/MBAs, and if you're JD-only then you wouldn't qualify to apply. 

Personally, I don't think there's a question whether JD/MBA gives you an advantage for big law hiring. There is a real question whether that advantage is worth it since you're adding a year onto your degree, you're paying more in tuition, and if you're a strong JD student then you can get the same opportunities without it. It seems from your original post that you are concerned with the extra tuition. Someone in another thread suggested reaching out to Queen's MBA program to see if you can get a scholarship to do the JD/MBA. According to that poster, they often give up to a 50% tuition reduction. I would imagine you'd be able to negotiate a bit with Schulich or Western to see if you can get the tuition down for their JD/MBAs, if you're at one of those schools instead. 

I’m a Queen’s alum but still don’t think it’s a significant advantage. There are people in the JD/MBA program that also did not land on Bay Street. Luckily at Queen’s, a lot of people apply for the MBA program in 1L summer so you can make the decision later but you should really think about whether the the cost and an extra year is worth it. A lot of people without any business background end up on Bay. It’s all about being able to sell your experience and say how it applies in a corporate sector (or you may end up deciding you want to do something that’s not corporate....you said so yourself that you have no background in business and recognize your interests may change. You also may decide you want to do litigation and you don’t have to sell an interest in corporate nearly as much). 

[Lizardking]

On 6/25/2021 at 7:45 PM, BlockedQuebecois said:

I would never advise someone to do a JD/MBA entering law school. It’s generally a huge expense, and I’m largely of the opinion it’s a racket. I have the same doors open to me that I would’ve had if I did a JD/MBA, and I’m much better off financially. 

The far more interesting question is whether the JD/MBA is worth it once you’ve done a year of law school. If you’re a mediocre law student and you want to work on Bay, a JD/MBA might open that door. If you’re a relatively strong student at Oz, a JD/MBA might also open the door to NYC big law. 

But until you know how you did in 1L, it’s speculative. 

I think my plan will be to apply this September as I was recommended to by the admissions people and then after my 1L decide if I actually want to do the program. It doesn't actually start until January of my 2L so even if I'm accepted I'll have some time before I am actually committed to spending the tuition. If I end up being a mediocre student and my interest in Biglaw becomes more solidified during 1L then I'd be more inclined to take the JD/MBA route.