Confused!!!!

[Beanie324]

Hi,

I am currently 23 and will graduate with an undergrad degree in 2024 which means that I will be 25 if I go to law school. Due to personal reasons, I had to take a break in between my undergrad. I am doing very well in school right now but am confused if I should apply to law school or not. I am very much interested in going to law school but..... I'll be 28 when I finish law school after which I still have to pass the bar and complete my articling. The other option I have is to go for a MPPA instead, which is a one year program and work my way upwards as a policy analyst. I know that the only way I could make good money would be if I worked in Biglaw, but I hear more and more people quitting every other day, including ones from U of T after they pay off their debt. The other option would be to start my own solo practice, but how long would it take for me to start practicing on my own? Can I start immediately after i'm done with my articling? I would really appreciate some advice. Also, i'm not from a very rich family so I will have to pay off everything myself.

[Whist]

I’d like to make clear first that your age is not a concern in regards to law school. I didn’t start 1L until my mid-twenties, and more than one of my friends did the same, or were in their thirties. Some students are 40+. 
 

In regards to BigLaw, yeah it’s one of the ways to make the most money, but it’s not like you’ll be out on the streets if you do anything but BigLaw. I’m paying for my law degree (and undergrad) myself and had no intention of that area of law from the get-go. The financial aspect is a very personal thing/dependant on your unique situation. You haven’t given info on your current debt or any additional financial concerns aside from that you’ll be paying your own way.

 

You’ve gotten better advice than I could give on another thread with the same question, but best not to immediately start your own practice. It’s not like it’s going to inherently have you rolling in big bucks compared to working for someone else. There’s just so much variance in earning depending on your field of law, what city you’re in, and many other factors.

[Beanie324]

Everyone tells me that it's not the best financial investment to make in your mid-twenties. What are your thoughts on this? Do you have any regrets or feel that you could've invested the same time in a different career?

With regards to the financial aspect, I'm concerned that I will not be making a significant amount of money for the years that I will be studying. I've also been looking at postings for associate jobs and the pay seems to be pretty average. 

 

24 minutes ago, Whist said:

I’d like to make clear first that your age is not a concern in regards to law school. I didn’t start 1L until my mid-twenties, and more than one of my friends did the same, or were in their thirties. Some students are 40+. 
 

In regards to BigLaw, yeah it’s one of the ways to make the most money, but it’s not like you’ll be out on the streets if you do anything but BigLaw. I’m paying for my law degree (and undergrad) myself and had no intention of that area of law from the get-go. The financial aspect is a very personal thing/dependant on your unique situation. You haven’t given info on your current debt or any additional financial concerns aside from that you’ll be paying your own way.

 

You’ve gotten better advice than I could give on another thread with the same question, but best not to immediately start your own practice. It’s not like it’s going to inherently have you rolling in big bucks compared to working for someone else. There’s just so much variance in earning depending on your field of law, what city you’re in, and many other factors.

 

[scooter]

2 hours ago, Beanie324 said:

I am very much interested in going to law school but..... I'll be 28 when I finish law school after which I still have to pass the bar and complete my articling.

When you are 28, you will laugh at the fact that you once thought 28 was "old"

20 minutes ago, Beanie324 said:

Everyone tells me that it's not the best financial investment to make in your mid-twenties. What are your thoughts on this? Do you have any regrets or feel that you could've invested the same time in a different career?

From a purely mathematical standpoint, there are many other ways you could make more money. But if you really want to be a lawyer then who cares? On the other hand, if you just want to make money, then it's not the best investment (but neither is becoming a Policy Analyst)

[Phaedrus]

There's a lot to unpack here.

3 hours ago, Beanie324 said:

I know that the only way I could make good money would be if I worked in Biglaw, but I hear more and more people quitting every other day, including ones from U of T after they pay off their debt.

This isn't necessarily true. If you work as a lawyer, you're going to be in the upper earnings bracket no matter where you geographically work. Comparatively speaking though, BigLaw starts off with higher salaries and has a higher ceiling. Other areas have low starting salaries (esp. criminal defence), but after 5 years make what an uninformed person considers "good money". But people bring in a lot assumptions and opinions about what good money means, and usually struggle to define what that means to them. A rural lawyer making $100k/yr is doing quite well where the regional median household income is $35k: Context matters. 

The decision to stick with a job I was miserable at for the sake of financial gain never really appealed to me. But I'm in a privileged position to say that. I don't have a significant other or dependents. My decisions (mostly) only impact me. 

Quote

The other option would be to start my own solo practice, but how long would it take for me to start practicing on my own? Can I start immediately after i'm done with my articling?

Technically, I guess, but you'd be ill-advised to go solo after articling. You won't know your ass from a hole in the ground. You'll need to know how to run a business and know your start-up costs, fees, billing practices, etc. while also teaching yourself substantive and procedural law, and all without direct mentorship. The people who have done it successfully are the incredibly rare exception, not the rule. 

Quote

I would really appreciate some advice. Also, i'm not from a very rich family so I will have to pay off everything myself.

Welcome to the club. A lot of us are of/from modest means or worse, and taking on copious amounts of debt was a significant deterrent. Starting your legal career in your late-20s is closer to standard than you'd think. I was a K-JD'er, but many many of my peers attended law school in their late 20s (and starting their careers around 30). Assuming your career is in law, we're talking a couple years out of 35+ in practice. The impact on earning capacity will not be that great, if any at all, and the factors that impact income are surely going to be beyond 'time put in'. Hell, even government gigs cap salaries after 15-20 years. 

You should be more concerned with whether you want to practice law, or whether it's a means to earning money. I'm of the belief that you have to enjoy the work, whatever part of it that is, because there are less consuming/persistently stressful careers out there that will afford you a comfortable living - assuming you have the aptitude to practice law or another profession. If you haven't already done so, you might want to put in some leg work to shadow a lawyer or two to see what their day-to-day is like. I didn't, and wish I had.*

*Not saying I dislike what I do, quite the contrary, but I didn't take a fully-informed approach to becoming a lawyer. School sucked and I only appreciated that I like the work after I was called and in practice.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Phaedrus

[Whist]

23 minutes ago, Beanie324 said:

Everyone tells me that it's not the best financial investment to make in your mid-twenties. What are your thoughts on this? Do you have any regrets or feel that you could've invested the same time in a different career?

With regards to the financial aspect, I'm concerned that I will not be making a significant amount of money for the years that I will be studying. I've also been looking at postings for associate jobs and the pay seems to be pretty average. 

My thoughts were that I wanted to become a lawyer, so I’m doing it. I of course considered the costs, and that affected where I considered going to law school, but I was largely looking at it in terms of whether it could be a career I’d enjoy spending 45 years of my life doing. I don’t see the difference if I’d have went when I was a bit younger versus mid-twenties. A few years is such a small portion of life. It’s not exactly the same because as a summer student I have less responsibility than a lawyer, but it’s the first job I’ve ever worked where I don’t want to jump in front of a bus. The comparison with previous jobs makes me appreciate an office job a whole lot, and I’m getting to investigate what I consider interesting topics. So for me, there’s been no regrets so far in pursuing this career. There are other things I could’ve pursued that are higher paying careers, sure, but I didn’t want those, I wanted this one. 
 

What do you consider “average pay”? I don’t have data offhand but the average Canadian earns less than the average lawyer. The pay ceiling is higher.

 

[ZukoJD]

Firstly, lawyer pay is not "average" if you're comparing it to the general population, which is a sensible comparison. In Canada only around 15% of the population earns above 100k. 100k+ for a lawyer is very attainable depending on your practice area. 

Your concerns over starting law school too late don't seem merited. I started in my mid twenties along with a fair few of my colleagues and we all seem content with our decision. Many of your classmates will be starting in their early twenties but age differences in law school are less pronounced. I hang out with K-JDers and people over a decade older than me-often both at once. 

 

 

 

[Beanie324]

27 minutes ago, Phaedrus said:

There's a lot to unpack here.

This isn't necessarily true. If you work as a lawyer, you're going to be in the upper earnings bracket no matter where you geographically work. Comparatively speaking though, BigLaw starts off with higher salaries and has a higher ceiling. Other areas have low starting salaries (esp. criminal defence), but after 5 years make what an uninformed person considers "good money". But people bring in a lot assumptions and opinions about what good money means, and usually struggle to define what that means to them. A rural lawyer making $100k/yr is doing quite well where the regional median household income is $35k: Context matters. 

The decision to stick with a job I was miserable at for the sake of financial gain never really appealed to me. But I'm in a privileged position to say that. I don't have a significant other or dependents. My decisions (mostly) only impact me. 

Technically, I guess, but you'd be ill-advised to go solo after articling. You won't know your ass from a hole in the ground. You'll need to know how to run a business and know your start-up costs, fees, billing practices, etc. while also teaching yourself substantive and procedural law, and all without direct mentorship. The people who have done it successfully are the incredibly rare exception, not the rule. 

Welcome to the club. A lot of us are of/from modest means or worse, and taking on copious amounts of debt was a significant deterrent. Starting your legal career in your late-20s is closer to standard than you'd think. I was a K-JD'er, but many many of my peers attended law school in their late 20s (and starting their careers around 30). Assuming your career is in law, we're talking a couple years out of 35+ in practice. The impact on earning capacity will not be that great, if any at all, and the factors that impact income are surely going to be beyond 'time put in'. Hell, even government gigs cap salaries after 15-20 years. 

You should be more concerned with whether you want to practice law, or whether it's a means to earning money. I'm of the belief that you have to enjoy the work, whatever part of it that is, because there are less consuming/persistently stressful careers out there that will afford you a comfortable living - assuming you have the aptitude to practice law or another profession. If you haven't already done so, you might want to put in some leg work to shadow a lawyer or two to see what their day-to-day is like. I didn't, and wish I had.*

*Not saying I dislike what I do, quite the contrary, but I didn't take a fully-informed approach to becoming a lawyer. School sucked and I only appreciated that I like the work after I was called and in practice.

I shadowed a real estate and criminal lawyer recently. He was unhappy with the fact that he still couldn't purchase a house and that his friends were making more money and had significant savings. I also know a family lawyer who plans on quitting because he is struggling to pay bills. The cost of living is so high now that it really makes me question whether my interest would remain.

[CleanHands]

6 minutes ago, Beanie324 said:

I shadowed a real estate and criminal lawyer recently.

I don't know this person and don't want to disparage them specifically, but in general, doing both of those practice areas is not a great sign.

6 minutes ago, Beanie324 said:

He was unhappy with the fact that he still couldn't purchase a house and that his friends were making more money and had significant savings.

Well, 7 years of post-secondary education plus a 1 year apprenticeship before you can really start work will certainly delay one's financial development relative to peers in fields requiring less opportunity cost. But this is a long-term rather than a short-term game.

If this person is a junior lawyer then, well yeah, it won't be wine and roses immediately out of the gate.

If this person was a senior lawyer...well, respectfully they didn't do too great relative to other lawyers and they aren't representative. But nothing is guaranteed.

Edited July 29, 2022 by CleanHands

[Rashabon]

You don't seem very motivated by the idea of being a lawyer which suggests to me you shouldn't be pursuing law as a career. If you're only in it for money, there are other things you can do.

Also there's a huge gulf between "big law" and "solo practice". It isn't a binary as you have suggested. There are dozens of permutations. Having seen it first hand, most people that have quit big law that I have seen do so because big law opened up another opportunity for them that allowed them to live their preferred lifestyle. I don't regularly see big law lawyers complete exit the practice of law directly, although it happens from time to time.

[Moms_Spaghetti]

I’m confused why age is even a factor here. Law is a very demanding career, don’t you think being a bit older going in might be more advantageous than not? 
 

Maybe it’s possible you need to consider the reasons you’re very interested in going into law. If it’s to get rich quick, maybe it’s not the career you should be chasing. And to be completely honest, every profession has a pool of people who hate what they do and they’re usually pretty easy to find. Every profession has turnover, I don’t think this is something exclusive to the legal industry right now…look at what’s happening in the medical field, for example. The reality is that if you’re from a non-wealthy family, no career will get you wealthy within the first few years while you cut your teeth. At the end of the day, the salary is only the payoff for the work you put in. If you’re not interested in the work, you’re not going to be happy here. 

[ZukoJD]

12 minutes ago, Moms_Spaghetti said:

I’m confused why age is even a factor here. Law is a very demanding career, don’t you think being a bit older going in might be more advantageous than not? 
 

Maybe it’s possible you need to consider the reasons you’re very interested in going into law. If it’s to get rich quick, maybe it’s not the career you should be chasing. And to be completely honest, every profession has a pool of people who hate what they do and they’re usually pretty easy to find. Every profession has turnover, I don’t think this is something exclusive to the legal industry right now…look at what’s happening in the medical field, for example. The reality is that if you’re from a non-wealthy family, no career will get you wealthy within the first few years while you cut your teeth. At the end of the day, the salary is only the payoff for the work you put in. If you’re not interested in the work, you’re not going to be happy here. 

FWIW I was told by a recruiter after the 1L recruit that a factor in favour of interviewing me was that I wasn't a K-JD. 

I also want to add, and this is incredibly speculative I admit, that many of the students I've seen hired at the larger firms do not appear to be K-JDs. 

[Moms_Spaghetti]

7 minutes ago, ZukoJD said:

FWIW I was told by a recruiter after the 1L recruit that a factor in favour of interviewing me was that I wasn't a K-JD. 

I also want to add, and this is incredibly speculative I admit, that many of the students I've seen hired at the larger firms do not appear to be K-JDs. 

You simply cannot teach life experience and the critical thinking that is developed through that in a classroom. And I would not be surprised if your speculation was correct. 

[Hegdis]

I agree with a lot of the feedback here in that I would think very carefully about if you want to practise law at all. I too am getting a "I want to make good money ASAP" as the primary motivation and that just doesn't bode well for a happy career in law. Nothing wrong with that - it's just that law isn't your best bet if that's the goal.

The age thing is a distraction. In Canada, it is rare for anyone to be a lawyer (if educated in Canada) before the age of 24. Three or four years on top of that is just... an average student. It's not even mentionable as something that stands out or doesn't. So I'd discard that as a concern.

[hiccups]

1 hour ago, Moms_Spaghetti said:

You simply cannot teach life experience and the critical thinking that is developed through that in a classroom. And I would not be surprised if your speculation was correct. 

I thought biglaw likes K-JD because they're more impressionable or something.

Edited August 3, 2022 by hiccups

[123]

1 hour ago, hiccups said:

I thought biglaw likes K-JD because they're more impressionable or something.

I’ve never applied to big law or worked in big law. But my sense from others who have gone through the process is that it is primarily grades + ability to answer interview questions like a person. Beyond that, I’ve never heard that these kinds of firms have any clear pattern of preference. But I’ll obviously defer to be people with actual knowledge. 

[ZukoJD]

13 hours ago, realpseudonym said:

I’ve never applied to big law or worked in big law. But my sense from others who have gone through the process is that it is primarily grades + ability to answer interview questions like a person. Beyond that, I’ve never heard that these kinds of firms have any clear pattern of preference. But I’ll obviously defer to be people with actual knowledge. 

I think the pattern of preference would develop much like it has for law school admissions. As things get more competitive, a K-JD, all things being equal, would lose out to someone with 2-3 years of professional experience. This is similar to how a 3rd year applicant, all things being equal, would lose out to a 4th year, or a Master's student. 

[TheAEGIS]

The debt concern is real.
Taking on six figures loans to pay for school will delay a lot (and I mean a lot) of the bigger things you might want to do in life (buying a house, starting a family, buying a nice car etc.). So I understand where you're coming from.

And I've certainly seen the effect of high debt on myself and my colleagues.

I sometimes consider where some of my non-law friends are financially. I realize it'll take me a whole whack of time to reach their level simply because of the lost time and additional debt repayment. Not to mention that things like housing got a whole lot more expensive while I was in school.

So it's not a slam dunk that you'll do better financially than your peers who aren't lawyers. Which I suppose it what others have been saying.
Really what you have to figure out is how badly you actually want to be a lawyer. Because If this is about getting a good job and making good money quickly, there are less expensive and faster ways to do this.

But if you're a genuine law or bust type ... well, that's an affliction I understand as well.