How to decline in-firms

[firstgen1234]

My schools CDO recommends us to accept between 4-6 in-firms. I am wondering what students should do if they received more than that. What is the best way to politely decline in-firm offers? If I already know a firm isn't in my top 6 list, should I decline by responding to the ITC email?

I just want to make sure I do this the right way.

I appreciate the insight!

[LMP]

I'd just respond to their ITC with a polite refusal. That way the firm can have a better sense of who they'll be reaching out to on call day. It saves everyone time and would likely be appreciated. 

Of course if you, like me, were a bit over enthusiastic and instinctively responded to early ITCs with affirmatives, you may have to have a slightly awkward phone call next week. 

[Pecan Boy]

If you know that you're turning a firm down, I definitely recommend replying to their ITC and letting them know. It's win-win: they'll be appreciative that you've saved them the time of calling you, and you won't have to field their call on Call Day when you're trying to focus on answering and scheduling the ones you're going to accept.

This is what I said to politely decline ITCs:

Hi ______, 

I really appreciate the invitation for another interview. Unfortunately, I have decided to pursue other opportunities. I’m sure there’s no shortage of excellent candidates to fill my spot. 

It was great to meet ____ and _____. Thank you for taking the time to speak with me. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Pecan Boy

[QMT20]

3 hours ago, firstgen1234 said:

My schools CDO recommends us to accept between 4-6 in-firms. I am wondering what students should do if they received more than that. What is the best way to politely decline in-firm offers? If I already know a firm isn't in my top 6 list, should I decline by responding to the ITC email?

I just want to make sure I do this the right way.

I appreciate the insight!

I think you should aim to schedule 7 in-firms, 5 first-round interviews on day-1 and 2 first-round interviews in the morning of day-2. You are likely to cancel the 2 you schedule for day-2 to accommodate second-round interviews from other firms but you don't want to deprive yourself of the opportunity to interview at more firms until you know how day-1 goes. 

After you've received more than 7 ITCs you can start declining them. Pecan Boy's example looks good and you can just copy that plugging in your information. 

[firstgen1234]

Thank you all for the tips! 

[Law_Student_X]

2 hours ago, QMT20 said:

I think you should aim to schedule 7 in-firms, 5 first-round interviews on day-1 and 2 first-round interviews in the morning of day-2. You are likely to cancel the 2 you schedule for day-2 to accommodate second-round interviews from other firms but you don't want to deprive yourself of the opportunity to interview at more firms until you know how day-1 goes.

Hey - I'm wondering why this isn't bad practice (to cancel scheduled day 2 interviews with firms once you find out your day 1s are converting into day 2s)

Wouldn't the firms you cancel on think badly of you/will they talk, since you're technically taking the opportunity away from someone else?  Or is this common practice? 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Law_Student_X

[Jaggers]

They will forget you ever existed within 5 seconds of you canceling. 

[CleanHands]

3 minutes ago, Jaggers said:

They will forget you ever existed within 5 seconds of you canceling. 

The contrast between law student neuroticism over the most trivial and petty details imaginable compared to the busy senior lawyer "I don't have time for minutiae, cut to the chase" attitude is always hilarious.

[Law_Student_X]

1 hour ago, CleanHands said:

The contrast between law student neuroticism over the most trivial and petty details imaginable compared to the busy senior lawyer "I don't have time for minutiae, cut to the chase" attitude is always hilarious.

This may be fair, but I don't see any CDOs recommending students to take more than 5 in-firms typically (the most you can fit into one day). I imagine if it was common practice to schedule 7 interviews and then cancel your day 2 morning ones, firms and other students would be pretty upset if it was widespread.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Law_Student_X

[chilly]

58 minutes ago, Law_Student_X said:

Hey - I'm wondering why this isn't bad practice (to cancel scheduled day 2 interviews with firms once you find out your day 1s are converting into day 2s)

Wouldn't the firms you cancel on think badly of you/will they talk, since you're technically taking the opportunity away from someone else?  Or is this common practice? 

My school's careers office strongly advised against accepting first-round in firms then dropping them last minute, not least of all because this takes an opportunity away from another student. Maybe attitudes differ between cities/markets, but I've heard that Vancouver employers really dislike this and the school's careers people get flak when students do this. 

[LMP]

2 minutes ago, Law_Student_X said:

This may be fair, but I don't see any CDOs recommending students to take more than 5 OCIs typically (the most you can fit into one day). I imagine if it was common practice to schedule 7 interviews and then cancel your day 2 morning ones, firms and other students would be pretty upset if it was widespread.

Not to nitpick, but you mean in firms, not OCIs right? Because only taking 5 OCIs would be pretty strange. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

31 minutes ago, chilly said:

My school's careers office strongly advised against accepting first-round in firms then dropping them last minute, not least of all because this takes an opportunity away from another student. Maybe attitudes differ between cities/markets, but I've heard that Vancouver employers really dislike this and the school's careers people get flak when students do this. 

Your law school has a vested interest in getting as many students hired in the recruit as possible and having employers (read: sponsors of numerous scholarships, events, etc) like them. It has no interest in getting you, an individual student at the school, hired in the recruit. 

In any event, if you don’t want to schedule interviews on day two, feel free not to. Just accept that you might end up without a date to the ball. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by BlockedQuebecois

[Law_Student_X]

17 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Your law school has a vested interest in getting as many students hired in the recruit as possible and having employers (read: sponsors of numerous scholarships, events, etc) like them. It has no interest in getting you, an individual student at the school, hired in the recruit. 

In any event, if you don’t want to schedule interviews on day two, feel free not to. Just accept that you might end up without a date to the ball. 

The issue isn't with whether or not to schedule day 2 interviews, my main inquiry was whether it was common practice to schedule day 2 first-round in firms and then cancel them to accomodate day 1 second-rounds on day 2 (quite a mouthful). 

I had assumed it would be bad practice and law firms may frown upon it, seeing as you're taking the opportunity away from someone else and essentially cancelling last minute after you had agreed to the interview. As chilly said, employers and CDOs seem to suggest against it in Van.

It would definitely be something I would be considering doing if it was fault-less, but I had inquires into whether it actually was or not. Of course I'd want to look out for my own interests in accepting as many in-firms as possible, but I don't want any fallout in the decision of canceling on firms last minute. I'm not sure it's as easy as "They will forget you ever existed within 5 seconds of you canceling."

Edited October 20, 2022 by Law_Student_X

[chilly]

4 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Your law school has a vested interest in getting as many students hired in the recruit as possible and having employers (read: sponsors of numerous scholarships, events, etc) like them. It has no interest in getting you, an individual student at the school, hired in the recruit. 

In any event, if you don’t want to schedule interviews on day two, feel free not to. Just accept that you might end up without a date to the ball. 

I'm well aware of my law school's interests in getting a high hire rate. (That said, having worked a fair bit with my school's very sweet careers office manager, I do think she also cares a lot about students as individuals.) I think Law_Student_X's question re: whether cancelling last minute might be frowned upon is valid-- it does result in another student not getting that interview and possibly landing a job. That said, yes you're right--cancelling last minute isn't a huge deal at the end of the day.

2 minutes ago, Law_Student_X said:

The issue isn't with whether or not to schedule day 2 interviews, my main inquiry was whether it was common practice to schedule day 2 first-round in firms and then cancel them to accomodate day 1 second-rounds on day 2 (quite a mouthful). 

I had assumed it would be bad practice and law firms may frown upon it, seeing as you're taking the opportunity away from someone else and essentially cancelling last minute after you had agreed to the interview. As chilly said, employers and CDOs seem to suggest against it in Van.

It would definitely be something I would be considering doing if it was fault-less, but I had inquires into whether it actually was or not. 

I declined one of my interviews since I wasn't very into the firm and preferred that another student who might have been really keen on the firm/otherwise not have gotten another in-firm could get the spot instead. The recruiter replied right away and let me know she really appreciated me letting her know before call day. I followed through with all of the day 2 interviews I scheduled. It was very manageable.

Ultimately it's a personal choice that depends on what you care about and want. Do whatever feels best and works for you, whether that's scheduling extra day 2 interviews and cancelling them, avoiding extra interviews you're not interested in, or taking all the interviews you can get. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[BlockedQuebecois]

The firm will move on to the next student the second you call and cancel, the same way they will move on to the next student the second you decline an interview on call day or say you aren’t interested later on in the week. Cancel as soon as you know you need to and leave it at that. There are no “repercussions” you need to be worried about. 

Look, I am probably this forum’s biggest booster of the “be honest with firms during recruits and during any employment relationships” ideology – several lawyers would probably say I take that opinion too far on occasion. Notwithstanding that context, I think this type of practice is perfectly fine because you are being honest. 

[QMT20]

10 hours ago, Law_Student_X said:

Hey - I'm wondering why this isn't bad practice (to cancel scheduled day 2 interviews with firms once you find out your day 1s are converting into day 2s)

Wouldn't the firms you cancel on think badly of you/will they talk, since you're technically taking the opportunity away from someone else?  Or is this common practice? 

When I went through the recruit a few years ago, it was common practice among the people in my circle who had more than 5 in-firms to schedule and cancel day-2 morning first round interviews. The CDO encouraged us to take 5 and try to squeeze them all in day-1. However, upper-year students and junior lawyers I spoke with had the impression that scheduling interviews on the morning of day-2 is fine, and the firms often expect you might cancel. 

There are firms that only schedule first-round interviews on day-1. In my view, the firms that really care about having day-2 first-round interviews cancelled are probably the ones that do that. The firms that schedule first-round interviews in the morning of day-2 know that they're not your top choice and that you're likely to drop them sooner or later once you have enough firms showing interest. Likewise, they won't hesitate to drop you after your interview once they know enough candidates are interested in them. 

8 hours ago, chilly said:

I'm well aware of my law school's interests in getting a high hire rate. (That said, having worked a fair bit with my school's very sweet careers office manager, I do think she also cares a lot about students as individuals.) I think Law_Student_X's question re: whether cancelling last minute might be frowned upon is valid-- it does result in another student not getting that interview and possibly landing a job. That said, yes you're right--cancelling last minute isn't a huge deal at the end of the day.

I'm sure your school's career office manager and career counsellors are very nice and care about students as individuals. 

However, they will form their policies on things like how many OCIs and in-firms students should be accepting to maximize the number of students that are hired, as Blocked Quebecois said. They won't give you advice that deviates too much from what they've decided they should say about those things because they wouldn't want you undermining them by telling your friends they said something different to you. In my view, it's good practice for the CDO not to show too much favouritism to particular students but that means the advice they provide won't always be in your best interest. 

8 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Look, I am probably this forum’s biggest booster of the “be honest with firms during recruits and during any employment relationships” ideology – several lawyers would probably say I take that opinion too far on occasion. Notwithstanding that context, I think this type of practice is perfectly fine because you are being honest. 

I agree with Blocked Quebecois's mentality. 

Ultimately, in this context, I just don't think anyone is being dishonest about scheduling a day-2 interview that they later cancel. You should cancel an interview the moment you know for sure you won't be accepting an offer from that firm just the same as you should only tell one firm they're your top choice. However, you don't know for sure if you have to cancel a day-2 morning interview until you've gone through day-1. Depending on how things go on day-1, you might be very happy to accept an offer from your day-2 firms and its certainly happened before that people who scheduled first-round interviews on the morning of day-2 ended up going to those firms. 

[Jaggers]

12 hours ago, CleanHands said:

The contrast between law student neuroticism over the most trivial and petty details imaginable compared to the busy senior lawyer "I don't have time for minutiae, cut to the chase" attitude is always hilarious.

There was a legendary thread on the old forum that included advice for students on where to place the stamp on your envelope if you mailed your application (which we did back in my day) as if the mailroom people wouldn't open and discard the envelope before anyone else saw it.