Why do law firms hire legal assistants over articling students? Many articling seekers will take on any unpaid articling even if it's just a receptionist job.

[Littleleague]

2 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

You sure about that? Why do we have labour/employment legislation? Whatever helps you sleep at night... 

There are small firms offering unpaid articles and they keep it on the down low because they (justifiably) get vilified for it. 

 

So you are saying that articling students should not be given the opportunity to article? It's a mutual benefit. Are you going to provide paid articling to all those that can't find one? There simply isn't enough paid articling positions. Why are you against unpaid articling? 

Are you afraid that there will be too many lawyers which will create more competition for your firm? Are you trying to use the limited number of articling positions limit the number of lawyers? Are you against programs like the LPP? So who is the selfish one? 

[Yogurt Baron]

59 minutes ago, Littleleague said:

You could say that I am helping those who are struggling and sending me unsolicited articling applications.

So, hold up, what stage are you at? On this thread, you've asked if they teach you how to run a business in law school (anyone who's been to law school, or even most who haven't, would know the answer to this), and repeatedly demonstrated that you don't know what "articling" is, if you think answering the phone qualifies. Now people are sending you articling applications? You've come a long way in the past six hours. Congratulations.

[Littleleague]

5 minutes ago, Yogurt Baron said:

So, hold up, what stage are you at? On this thread, you've asked if they teach you how to run a business in law school (anyone who's been to law school, or even most who haven't, would know the answer to this), and repeatedly demonstrated that you don't know what "articling" is, if you think answering the phone qualifies. Now people are sending you articling applications? You've come a long way in the past six hours. Congratulations.

Now you are just rambling. I stated I do hiring. So I receive job applications for multiple positions. Many people ask for articling jobs even though I am only hiring an assistant. I realized the reason why I am getting unsolicited articling applications is because there is a shortage of paid articling jobs. So I figured why not offer unpaid articling jobs where some would happily accept. I researching this so I can make recommendations to the people I work for. 

Are all lawyers so uptight? Why all the animosity for a simple question. 

[QueensDenning]

33 minutes ago, Littleleague said:

So you are saying that articling students should not be given the opportunity to article? It's a mutual benefit. Are you going to provide paid articling to all those that can't find one? There simply isn't enough paid articling positions. Why are you against unpaid articling? 

Are you afraid that there will be too many lawyers which will create more competition for your firm? Are you trying to use the limited number of articling positions limit the number of lawyers? Are you against programs like the LPP? So who is the selfish one? 

The LPP has a paid internship component. I think it would be wise for students to do the LPP over unpaid articling.

I'm against unpaid articling because it's exploitative. If a firm has the capacity to utilize the work of an articling student, they should pay a fair wage for it. I don't think there are many Canadian law school grads who can't find a paid articling position, regardless. 

And not to be pompous, but my firm isn't facing any competition from firms that utilize unpaid labor. 

[Yogurt Baron]

Just now, Littleleague said:

Now you are just rambling. I stated I do hiring. So I receive job applications for multiple positions. Many people ask for articling jobs even though I am only hiring an assistant. I realized the reason why I am getting unsolicited articling applications is because there is a shortage of paid articling jobs. So I figured why not offer unpaid articling jobs where some would happily accept. I researching this so I can make recommendations to the people I work for. 

Are all lawyers so uptight? Why all the animosity for a simple question. 

This thread is the least I've ever rambled in my life.

I'm not a lawyer.

No animosity intended.

My sincere and kindly-intended response to you is in my first post: "articling student" is not the same thing as "legal assistant", and that's the crux of the issue here. It's a mistake any layperson could make. Best of luck.

[QueensDenning]

7 minutes ago, Littleleague said:

Now you are just rambling. I stated I do hiring. So I receive job applications for multiple positions. Many people ask for articling jobs even though I am only hiring an assistant. I realized the reason why I am getting unsolicited articling applications is because there is a shortage of paid articling jobs. So I figured why not offer unpaid articling jobs where some would happily accept. I researching this so I can make recommendations to the people I work for. 

Are all lawyers so uptight? Why all the animosity for a simple question. 

Every post you've made is rambling and borderline incoherent. 

Edited November 10, 2022 by QueensDenning

[aurora borealis]

7 minutes ago, Littleleague said:

Now you are just rambling. I stated I do hiring. So I receive job applications for multiple positions. Many people ask for articling jobs even though I am only hiring an assistant. I realized the reason why I am getting unsolicited articling applications is because there is a shortage of paid articling jobs. So I figured why not offer unpaid articling jobs where some would happily accept. I researching this so I can make recommendations to the people I work for. 

Are all lawyers so uptight? Why all the animosity for a simple question. 

Have you considered offering paid articling jobs? Why are you going straight to "let's not pay people for their work," especially since it seems you don't really understand the point of articling?

Edited November 10, 2022 by aurora borealis

[Phaedrus]

6 hours ago, Littleleague said:

Many people that can't find paid articling positions are willing to take unpaid articling even if the job tasks are just answering the phone. Why pay $20/hour for a barely educated legal assistant when you could easily get an educated articling student for free? It's obvious there is that demand for articling positions greatly outweighs supply. Why aren't law firms taking advantage? It's simple economics. 

1 hour ago, Littleleague said:

I'm not forcing people to work for free. It's not exploitation if people are willing to work for free. In matter of fact I am providing an opportunity for them to gain experience.

That's exactly what exploitation is. You identified that there is a market of people who can't find paid work necessary to enter a profession, and then suggest someone in a position of control (power) make that position unpaid because, implicitly, the person has little or no other choice. 

Kudos on the troll thread, though. 

[Littleleague]

12 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

The LPP has a paid internship component. I think it would be wise for students to do the LPP over unpaid articling.

I'm against unpaid articling because it's exploitative. If a firm has the capacity to utilize the work of an articling student, they should pay a fair wage for it. I don't think there are many Canadian law school grads who can't find a paid articling position, regardless. 

And not to be pompous, but my firm isn't facing any competition from firms that utilize unpaid labor. 

I'm glad your intentions are not to limit the number of lawyers by limiting the number of articling positions available. LPP came into existence because of the articling position shortage. Over a third of LPP internships are unpaid.

I've had the opportunity to talk to some of those that are struggling and suggest that they cannot afford to move across the province to do the LPP. So unpaid articling is something that they would prefer. 

[Mbu1]

15 hours ago, realpseudonym said:

Yeah, admin staff and articling students fulfill completely different purposes. Good administrative staff run many aspects of a firm. They might do everything from keeping the lawyer on top of things, to handling clients, billing, and really everything else that isn't practicing law. They are trusted, competent members of the firm, who can do many things that the typical student cannot.

The idea underlying articling is that the student should be learning to practice under careful and close supervision. Sure, part of the appeal of hiring one is that they're generally cheaper than an associate. And yes, even good principals may assign students a certain amount of administrative work, as that is part of practice. But that doesn't mean you're going to use them as a secretary. While I acknowledge that shitty principals might do so, there are lots of diligent, dedicated articling principals, who are legitimately trying to mentor the next generation of lawyers into the profession. In that vein, they should be used for case work. Legal assistants should not, generally speaking.

Why don't firms "take advantage"? Lots of reasons.

Thanks for making your point while keeping your tone civil and respectful. 

[KOMODO]

I just scanned through this thread, but it doesn't look like anyone mentioned that the Law Society of Ontario recently voted to implement a mandatory minimum compensation policy for articling? So at least in Ontario, you soon won't be permitted to provide an articling position without pay.

https://www.thelawyersdaily.ca/articles/35569/lso-votes-in-mandatory-minimum-pay-for-articling-students