Chances? Should I give up and go to the UK?

[matthews95]

My GPA is very low, 2.4 with extenuating circumstances (no disability) . I applied with a 159 and B2 is 3.3 and B20 is 3.6-3.7 ( I have a lot of A's, A+'s and F's) on my transcript. I was rejected from every school I applied to like i expected. I applied all over Canada including Windsor Dual and B2 schools like Sask.

I have been able to improve my LSAT to 161 on my last write ( 2 remaining) , but now im wondering if I should further improve my LSAT score or go the NCA route. I have been accepted to the UK and finding an articling position really isn't a problem due to family connections.

Im really confused, I don't know whether I should spend the effort in to rewriting the LSAT if I'm still unlikely to gain admission despite a 160+. I PT at around 170 and know I can make it to the middle 160's, but would that even make a difference given my low CGPA? 

I hope I can get some advice regarding my situation. Thank you for your help. 

[Avatar Aang]

6 minutes ago, matthews95 said:

My GPA is very low, 2.4 with extenuating circumstances (no disability) . I applied with a 159 and B2 is 3.3 and B20 is 3.6-3.7 ( I have a lot of A's, A+'s and F's) on my transcript. I was rejected from every school I applied to like i expected. I applied all over Canada including Windsor Dual and B2 schools like Sask.

I have been able to improve my LSAT to 161 on my last write ( 2 remaining) , but now im wondering if I should further improve my LSAT score or go the NCA route. I have been accepted to the UK and finding an articling position really isn't a problem due to family connections.

Im really confused, I don't know whether I should spend the effort in to rewriting the LSAT if I'm still unlikely to gain admission despite a 160+. I PT at around 170 and know I can make it to the middle 160's, but would that even make a difference given my low CGPA? 

I hope I can get some advice regarding my situation. Thank you for your help. 

Do you plan on working only at the places where you have family connections? Many doors will be closed to you or very difficult to break into with a UK law degree that is not from Oxbridge or LSE. I would do the LSAT again and also go back to school for at least another two years as most schools focus on that. Doing 2 more years of schooling is a small price to pay in comparison to the barriers and stigma you will face with a UK law degree, as well as the costs associated with going abroad and the NCAs.

[matthews95]

12 minutes ago, Avatar Aang said:

Do you plan on working only at the places where you have family connections? Many doors will be closed to you or very difficult to break into with a UK law degree that is not from Oxbridge or LSE. I would do the LSAT again and also go back to school for at least another two years as most schools focus on that. Doing 2 more years of schooling is a small price to pay in comparison to the barriers and stigma you will face with a UK law degree, as well as the costs associated with going abroad and the NCAs.

Thanks for taking the time to reply! The family connections would help. Luckily, I would be able to practice almost any type of law. I know this is a big barrier for NCA students but im fortunate enough to not have to worry too much about employment. Going back to school for another two years is not possible, at best I would be able to do one year as im writing the LSAT. Do you think a 161 with my GPA would help me gain admission or is it a lost cause with my current stats? 

[luckycharm]

8 minutes ago, matthews95 said:

Thanks for taking the time to reply! The family connections would help. Luckily, I would be able to practice almost any type of law. I know this is a big barrier for NCA students but im fortunate enough to not have to worry too much about employment. Going back to school for another two years is not possible, at best I would be able to do one year as im writing the LSAT. Do you think a 161 with my GPA would help me gain admission or is it a lost cause with my current stats? 

I don't see any chance for admission with 2.4 GPA and 3.3 B2. Someone in this cycle has a 179 and higher GPA than yours and is still waiting.

If you have no problem with employment, then UK may be the only way for a career in law.  I don't normally suggest taking the UK or foreign route.

  

Edited July 5, 2021 by luckycharm

[NowOrNever]

46 minutes ago, matthews95 said:

My GPA is very low, 2.4 with extenuating circumstances (no disability) . I applied with a 159 and B2 is 3.3 and B20 is 3.6-3.7 ( I have a lot of A's, A+'s and F's) on my transcript. I was rejected from every school I applied to like i expected. I applied all over Canada including Windsor Dual and B2 schools like Sask.

I have been able to improve my LSAT to 161 on my last write ( 2 remaining) , but now im wondering if I should further improve my LSAT score or go the NCA route. I have been accepted to the UK and finding an articling position really isn't a problem due to family connections.

Im really confused, I don't know whether I should spend the effort in to rewriting the LSAT if I'm still unlikely to gain admission despite a 160+. I PT at around 170 and know I can make it to the middle 160's, but would that even make a difference given my low CGPA? 

I hope I can get some advice regarding my situation. Thank you for your help. 

What is your L2?

Are you qualifying for mature category?

If so you will have good chance to Western and Ottawa with a higher LSAT.

14 minutes ago, luckycharm said:

I don't see any chance for admission with 2.4 GPA and 3.3 B2. Someone in this cycle has a 179 and higher GPA than yours and is still waiting.

If you have no problem with employment, then UK may be the only way for a career in law.  I don't normally suggest taking the UK or foreign route.

  

I remember there was an applicant who got into USask with 3.3 B2 and 167 LSAT a couple of years ago.

[matthews95]

2 minutes ago, NowOrNever said:

What is your L2?

Are you qualifying for mature category?

If so you will have good chance to Western and Ottawa with a higher LSAT.

Thank you for your reply! I do not qualify for mature, I don't think at least ( mid twenties), but I do have special circumstances that impacted my GPA.

Unfortunately, my last few years is where my GPA suffers. But, in my last semester I had a 3.7 gpa with all four year courses which I did highlight on my apps. Im willing to go anywhere in Canada, not just Ontario schools so I also hope that helps with my chances.

Western and Victoria both rejected me, but I could tell they sent personalized letters highlighting specific reasons as to why my application was rejected and advice for applying next cycle.I did also put a lot of work in to my personal statement and EC's to make up for my lackluster GPA this cycle. I plan on talking to both of these committees to see if my new LSAT score helps. 

[NowOrNever]

30 minutes ago, matthews95 said:

Thank you for your reply! I do not qualify for mature, I don't think at least ( mid twenties), but I do have special circumstances that impacted my GPA.

Unfortunately, my last few years is where my GPA suffers. But, in my last semester I had a 3.7 gpa with all four year courses which I did highlight on my apps. Im willing to go anywhere in Canada, not just Ontario schools so I also hope that helps with my chances.

Western and Victoria both rejected me, but I could tell they sent personalized letters highlighting specific reasons as to why my application was rejected and advice for applying next cycle.I did also put a lot of work in to my personal statement and EC's to make up for my lackluster GPA this cycle. I plan on talking to both of these committees to see if my new LSAT score helps. 

Your last semester is good.

TRU counts last 20 courses and you can register as a non-degree to  increase your GPA (one year should be good enough: 2 semesters + summer).

If you can make your L20 3.5+ (80% +) you will open more doors (including Western, Calgary, Alberta, etc.).

Did you check your GPA for Manitoba and UNB (they both drop your 25% worst grades)?

For improving your LSAT score I recommend https://www.harvardready.com/.

[matthews95]

1 hour ago, luckycharm said:

I don't see any chance for admission with 2.4 GPA and 3.3 B2. Someone in this cycle has a 179 and higher GPA than yours and is still waiting.

If you have no problem with employment, then UK may be the only way for a career in law.  I don't normally suggest taking the UK or foreign route.

  

Thanks for the advice, I PM'd you to get some more info 

[matthews95]

33 minutes ago, NowOrNever said:

Your last semester is good.

TRU counts last 20 courses and you can register as a non-degree to  increase your GPA (one year should be good enough: 2 semesters + summer).

If you can make your L20 3.5+ (80% +) you will open more doors (including Western, Calgary, Alberta, etc.).

Did you check your GPA for Manitoba and UNB (they both drop your 25% worst grades)?

For improving your LSAT score I recommend https://www.harvardready.com/.

Thanks for the info,  I'll also take a look at other schools that take grades after your degree.

But, what if going back to school isn't an option? Would I still have a decent chance with a mid 160 lsat? Even for the dual or Ottawa/MSU program? 

Wiith drops my GPA is around 3.0

[NowOrNever]

30 minutes ago, matthews95 said:

Thanks for the info,  I'll also take a look at other schools that take grades after your degree.

But, what if going back to school isn't an option? Would I still have a decent chance with a mid 160 lsat? Even for the dual or Ottawa/MSU program? 

Wiith drops my GPA is around 3.0

I am pretty sure most schools (if not all) will take the grades you take as a non-degree student (https://www.utsc.utoronto.ca/admissions/non-degree-student).

I don't know dual or Ottawa/MSU program.

Manitoba uses 4.5 scale: https://umanitoba.ca/faculties/graduate_studies/media/Canadian_GPA_Equivalencies.pdf

Convert your GPA and see what you get after drops (should be higher than 3.0).

Then we can see what LSAT score you need.

Edited July 5, 2021 by NowOrNever

[matthews95]

Its pretty low even with the drops 

40 minutes ago, NowOrNever said:

I am pretty sure most schools (if not all) will take the grades you take as a non-degree student (https://www.utsc.utoronto.ca/admissions/non-degree-student).

I don't know dual or Ottawa/MSU program.

Manitoba uses 4.5 scale: https://umanitoba.ca/faculties/graduate_studies/media/Canadian_GPA_Equivalencies.pdf

Convert your GPA and see what you get after drops (should be higher than 3.0).

Then we can see what LSAT score you need.

Its pretty low even with drops. 3.31/4.5. I thought the A+'s would have helped but not that much unfortunately 

[NowOrNever]

32 minutes ago, matthews95 said:

Its pretty low even with the drops 

Its pretty low even with drops. 3.31/4.5. I thought the A+'s would have helped but not that much unfortunately 

With 3.31 / 4.5 you you need 166+ LSAT.

https://umanitoba.ca/student/admissions/media/law_bulletin.pdf

So improve both your GPA and your LSAT score and apply in Individual Consideration Category (you will be automatically put into index score category if your index score is high enough).

You also can Request for Elimination - Under special circumstances, applicants may seek the elimination of a portion of their academic record from the calculation of the AGPA for law admission.

Good luck!

[matthews95]

17 minutes ago, NowOrNever said:

With 3.31 / 4.5 you you need 166+ LSAT.

https://umanitoba.ca/student/admissions/media/law_bulletin.pdf

So improve both your GPA and your LSAT score and apply in Individual Consideration Category (you will be automatically put into index score category if your index score is high enough).

You also can Request for Elimination - Under special circumstances, applicants may seek the elimination of a portion of their academic record from the calculation of the AGPA for law admission.

Good luck!

Thank you so much! This is really helpful!

How about schools like Ryerson, USask,UNB,  Thompson Rivers, Lakehead etc. Would you have any recommendations or info you think might help?

[LMP]

I don't have any particular input at the moment but I'd like to congratulate you on your dedication and fortitude. 

A lot of people would be eager to take the (seemingly) easy way out and just go abroad. But you've chosen to persevere and I sincerely believe and hope that your decision will pay dividends down the road.

[NowOrNever]

22 minutes ago, matthews95 said:

Thank you so much! This is really helpful!

How about schools like Ryerson, USask,UNB,  Thompson Rivers, Lakehead etc. Would you have any recommendations or info you think might help?

Don't know much about Ryerson and Lakehead.

UNB uses 4.3 scale TRU uses 4.33 scale which may help you a bit since you have some As+.

Definitely apply to USask, UNB and TRU with improved GPA/LSAT.

[matthews95]

30 minutes ago, NowOrNever said:

Don't know much about Ryerson and Lakehead.

UNB uses 4.3 scale TRU uses 4.33 scale which may help you a bit since you have some As+.

Definitely apply to USask, UNB and TRU with improved GPA/LSAT.

You have been very helpful, thank you. I'll do my best to improve both my GPA/LSAT and hope we'll have some good news next year.

[matthews95]

47 minutes ago, LMP said:

I don't have any particular input at the moment but I'd like to congratulate you on your dedication and fortitude. 

A lot of people would be eager to take the (seemingly) easy way out and just go abroad. But you've chosen to persevere and I sincerely believe and hope that your decision will pay dividends down the road.

Thank you! With all the pressure and advice you get from family and friends believing in yourself can be tough.But I really do want a Canadian Law Degree and I am willing to do whatever it takes. I try my best to believe that if I put in the work now, hopefully it'll pay off in the end, but still aware of life and things not always working out the way you want. I started with a 152 LSAT and although I have improved, I know I got a long way to go. I'll try my best and I fail I will go to the UK because becoming a lawyer is what ultimately matters to me, but for now I'll try.

[BlockedQuebecois]

Is money an issue? If you have someone footing the bill for your education and you're confident articling will not be a problem if you go, I would strongly consider going to the UK and just taking a flyer on transfer applications next year. The timing of the degree abroad + NCA is either as long or shorter than the timing of reapplying, with no guarantee you'll be accepted in Canada next year.

You should make sure you're truly confident about securing an articling spot, though. There's a guy out in BC who keeps getting dinged for practicing law without a licence because he couldn't find articles, even though his father was the name partner at a pretty significant firm before becoming a provincial court judge. 

Edited July 5, 2021 by BlockedQuebecois

[matthews95]

15 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Is money an issue? If you have someone footing the bill for your education and you're confident articling will not be a problem if you go, I would strongly consider going to the UK and just taking a flyer on transfer applications next year. The timing of the degree abroad + NCA is either as long or shorter than the timing of reapplying, with no guarantee you'll be accepted in Canada next year.

You should make sure you're truly confident about securing an articling spot, though. There's a guy out in BC who keeps getting dinged for practicing law without a licence because he couldn't find articles, even though his father was the name partner at a pretty significant firm before becoming a provincial court judge. 

Thanks for the advice! Im fortunate enough to be in circumstances where money isn't an issue, but I don't want to make a bad financial decision either. I'm also lucky to have articling positions secured.

Would Canadian law schools consider LLB grades for my application? 

[luckycharm]

You can consider transferring back to a law school in Canada after your first year in UK.

The deadline for application in Ontario is usually May 1 and you should check out upper year (2L) transfer deadlines all schools outside Ontario.

Check these out- some schools only accept transfer from within Canada

 https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=Law+schools+upper+year+transfer&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

[Whist]

7 hours ago, matthews95 said:

The family connections would help. Luckily, I would be able to practice almost any type of law.

Can you elaborate on this? I understand you having lawyer family/friends who would give you a job. What I don't get is how you would be able to practice a law niche totally of your choice upon return, if you went the UK route. No lawyer or firm specializes in everything, and I find it hard to believe that you know at least one lawyer in every practice area with the capacity to hire.

Edit: Unless you meant you'd be okay practicing anything... In which case, ignore me.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Liavas

[Civil2Common]

It looks like a lot of people have provided some great advice here OP.

While they are likely more familiar with the importance of grades + LSAT score, I get the impression that doing an extra year of undergraduate studies could help boost your overall average and make an impact on your chances for admission. You even mentioned a few schools sending personalized letters encouraging you to reapply the following year. I think that it is well worth a shot to do that before you decide to go the UK route. 🙂

[CheeseToast]

Are you okay with being the rich kid everyone knows was too stupid to get into Canadian law school (which isn’t even difficult)?

Take another year or two of uni, do well, and you’ll be fine with a 161 under your belt. 

[Whist]

35 minutes ago, CheeseToast said:

Are you okay with being the rich kid everyone knows was too stupid to get into Canadian law school (which isn’t even difficult)?

Oh no

[CanLawCardinal]

43 minutes ago, CheeseToast said:

Are you okay with being the rich kid everyone knows was too stupid to get into Canadian law school (which isn’t even difficult)?

 

Saltier than the bottom of a bag of potato chips.