Ottawa or McGill

[amandine]

Hi, I'm trying to decide between McGill and Ottawa and was hoping someone could weigh in on some of my main concerns. I am interested in international law, and was drawn to both degrees because of the possibility of doing common law and civil law. However, I accidentally only applied to the common law at Ottawa. Do you think having both degrees leaves more options open if I want to work internationally?

Some of the advantages of the Ottawa program are the specializations and the professors - in particular, the environmental and international law programs seems good, and I'm seeing more professors with research that align with my interests (like food law, which is rare). Class size in Ottawa seems to be an issue that people mention though, and it's also a bit more expensive in terms of tuition and living expenses.

Do you have any thoughts on the common/civil law question, or insights about clinics, internship opportunities, general experience at both law schools? Many thanks in advance!

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by amandine

[LMP]

I don't really see any advantage in going to Ottawa in this situation. McGill will provide the same oppertunites (and then some) at a better price. 

[amandine]

22 minutes ago, LMP said:

I don't really see any advantage in going to Ottawa in this situation. McGill will provide the same oppertunites (and then some) at a better price. 

Ottawa just seems to have a much larger and varied faculty, especially in the areas that interest me. So I'm wondering how important it is to have the opportunity to take courses in the area of law I want to work in after graduation.

[LMP]

I'm guessing this is in reference to "international law". Here's the thing, that isn't really an area you can practice in. 0Ls have this nebulos idea of "international law" but can never pin down what exactly that means. For the most part this is because such work is exceedingly rare.

Most truly transnational legal work, that you can access on graduation, is going to be conducted by big firms. And biglaw firms have pretty clearly demonstrated that they'll hire from McGill over Ottawa. 

Moreover, no one is going to care if you have some specific course in one area or another. The relevant factors are going to be your school's name, your grades and your work experience. I truly think you disadvantage yourself by going to Ottawa over McGill. You pay more to get less. 

[ArchivesandMuseums]

56 minutes ago, amandine said:

Ottawa just seems to have a much larger and varied faculty, especially in the areas that interest me. So I'm wondering how important it is to have the opportunity to take courses in the area of law I want to work in after graduation.

I am a law student at uOttawa (3L), but there will not be any advantage for you to choose uOttawa over McGill. Go to McGill!

[reaperlaw]

7 hours ago, LMP said:

I'm guessing this is in reference to "international law". Here's the thing, that isn't really an area you can practice in. 0Ls have this nebulos idea of "international law" but can never pin down what exactly that means. For the most part this is because such work is exceedingly rare.

Most truly transnational legal work, that you can access on graduation, is going to be conducted by big firms. And biglaw firms have pretty clearly demonstrated that they'll hire from McGill over Ottawa. 

Moreover, no one is going to care if you have some specific course in one area or another. The relevant factors are going to be your school's name, your grades and your work experience. I truly think you disadvantage yourself by going to Ottawa over McGill. You pay more to get less. 

Several parts of this post are incorrect, but I will single out two as being particularly false.

For the bolded, this is not true in Canada unless you are specifically talking about cross-border/international transactions, which is not what most students who say they are interested in "international law" are thinking of, even if their interest in international law is "nebulous" as you say.  Indeed, there are also not that many firms that actually do cross-border transactions regularly and I'd personally say there are more "international law" jobs than there are cross-border transaction jobs. Legal work in Canada that touches on international law is primarily practiced by the government and boutiques, not big law. 

For the italicized, this is not true for the Toronto, Vancouver, or Ottawa recruits, where Ottawa consistently places more students than McGill both in absolute numbers and percentage of the class. McGill places better than Ottawa in New York and Montreal recruit, but that is not big law firms "pretty clearly demonstrat[ing] that they'll hire from McGill over Ottawa."

Edited February 9, 2023 by reaperlaw

[LMP]

1 hour ago, reaperlaw said:

Several parts of this post are incorrect, but I will single out two as being particularly false.

For the bolded, this is not true in Canada unless you are specifically talking about cross-border/international transactions, which is not what most students who say they are interested in "international law" are thinking of, even if their interest in international law is "nebulous" as you say.  Indeed, there are also not that many firms that actually do cross-border transactions regularly and I'd personally say there are more "international law" jobs than there are cross-border transaction jobs. Legal work in Canada that touches on international law is primarily practiced by the government and boutiques, not big law. 

For the italicized, this is not true for the Toronto, Vancouver, or Ottawa recruits, where Ottawa consistently places more students than McGill both in absolute numbers and percentage of the class. McGill places better than Ottawa in New York and Montreal recruit, but that is not big law firms "pretty clearly demonstrat[ing] that they'll hire from McGill over Ottawa."

Just because you disagree with me doesn't mean what I said is "false". 

Frankly, speaking from my own knowledge I think you are incorrect. I'm dubious of the avalabily of these government and boutique jobs in international law that are apperantly sitting around waiting for eager new calls. You'll note I said "accessible on graduation". But hey, it isn't my field and I may well be wrong. I welcome you to post some of these openings so I can share them with folks looking for international oppertunites. 

Having said that, I welcome you to state your opinion so that OP can have a diversity of views on the topic. But if you're going to say I'm flat out wrong, I'm going to be a little skeptical.

 

[duck]

10 hours ago, amandine said:

Hi, I'm trying to decide between McGill and Ottawa and was hoping someone could weigh in on some of my main concerns. I am interested in international law, and was drawn to both degrees because of the possibility of doing common law and civil law. However, I accidentally only applied to the common law at Ottawa. Do you think having both degrees leaves more options open if I want to work internationally?

Some of the advantages of the Ottawa program are the specializations and the professors - in particular, the environmental and international law programs seems good, and I'm seeing more professors with research that align with my interests (like food law, which is rare). Class size in Ottawa seems to be an issue that people mention though, and it's also a bit more expensive in terms of tuition and living expenses.

Do you have any thoughts on the common/civil law question, or insights about clinics, internship opportunities, general experience at both law schools? Many thanks in advance!

 

I slap myself in the face every day for not applying to Mcgill for the price alone. Unless expenses are not a real concern for you, Mcgill Mcgill Mcgill.

Seeing your bank account can impact a lot of your decisions in the types of jobs you take and areas you explore. I know people from Ottawa who were dead set on the same things you like take biglaw interviews just because of money reasons. 

[reaperlaw]

41 minutes ago, LMP said:

Just because you disagree with me doesn't mean what I said is "false". 

Frankly, speaking from my own knowledge I think you are incorrect. I'm dubious of the avalabily of these government and boutique jobs in international law that are apperantly sitting around waiting for eager new calls. You'll note I said "accessible on graduation". But hey, it isn't my field and I may well be wrong. I welcome you to post some of these openings so I can share them with folks looking for international oppertunites. 

Having said that, I welcome you to state your opinion so that OP can have a diversity of views on the topic. But if you're going to say I'm flat out wrong, I'm going to be a little skeptical.

 

This isn't a matter of opinion, what you said is demonstrably false.

Look at Ultra Vires' recruitment statistics, you will see that Ottawa consistently places more students than McGill in those recruits and does so usually on a proportionate basis as well. You can also look at the Government of Canada's directory for employees at departments like GAC. The Trade Law Bureau alone has dozens of lawyers who practice exclusively international law. 

I also don't know what you mean by "opportunities"; the government participates in structured student recruit and not infrequently posts LP-1 opportunities in international law (JLT had an active posting a couple months ago, for example). The boutiques large enough to participate in structured student recruit also do so. It's not like these are a secret. These are much more tangible opportunities than cross-border transactions, which requires you getting a job at one of the few big law firms that does any meaningful amount of work in the area and then also getting the opportunity to work on those files.

You are a law student, you are not in any position to be stating what fields of law are real and whether or not big law firms prefer a particular school. 

[LMP]

19 minutes ago, reaperlaw said:

This isn't a matter of opinion, what you said is demonstrably false.

Look at Ultra Vires' recruitment statistics, you will see that Ottawa consistently places more students than McGill in those recruits and does so usually on a proportionate basis as well. You can also look at the Government of Canada's directory for employees at departments like GAC. The Trade Law Bureau alone has dozens of lawyers who practice exclusively international law. 

I also don't know what you mean by "opportunities"; the government participates in structured student recruit and not infrequently posts LP-1 opportunities in international law (JLT had an active posting a couple months ago, for example). The boutiques large enough to participate in structured student recruit also do so. It's not like these are a secret. These are much more tangible opportunities than cross-border transactions, which requires you getting a job at one of the few big law firms that does any meaningful amount of work in the area and then also getting the opportunity to work on those files.

You are a law student, you are not in any position to be stating what fields of law are real and whether or not big law firms prefer a particular school. 

I still believe your assumptions are incorrect. 

But I don't think further discussion on this particular tangent is helpful to OP and I'd rather not clutter up the thread. 

If you'd like to discuss further you can begin a new thread on the topic or DM me directly. I'll be happy to explain why I think you are off base. 

[reaperlaw]

18 minutes ago, LMP said:

I still believe your assumptions are incorrect. 

But I don't think further discussion on this particular tangent is helpful to OP and I'd rather not clutter up the thread. 

If you'd like to discuss further you can begin a new thread on the topic or DM me directly. I'll be happy to explain why I think you are off base. 

There is no assumptions. There are no opinions. You are treating this discussion as something subjective when it is not. What I have said are facts: Ottawa places more students in structured recruits (e.g. big law) west of Quebec than McGill, and international law is most definitely practiced in Canada.

I am not sure why you seem to be taking this personally. I have no interest in continuing this with you privately or starting a new thread. I replied to you because you gave bad advice to the OP by making several points that are incorrect. Pretty sure that's being helpful here, but maybe that's just me. I only have direct experience in this subject matter...

[CommeCiCommeCa]

Hey @amandine, I was in a very similar situation to you a few years ago and ultimately ended up choosing McGill. The main reasons that swayed me in the end were the lower tuition, Montréal being a beautiful and much cheaper city, and the dual degrees. Having the the civil law degree was important for me so that I could more easily keep doors open for moving to Europe later. I'm happy to chat with you in further detail about it. If you have any questions, please feel free to send me a DM. Best of luck with your decision. Both of these schools are great options, so congrats!