Osgoode or Western

[flyingmonkey]

I've received offers from both Western and Osgoode but I'm having a hard time choosing. I did my undergrad in philosophy at York where I published in the undergraduate philosophy journal and received several academic awards. I'm considering Osgoode because it is the only school offering a combined JD/MA (Philosophy). I love philosophy but academia is simply not economically viable. My intention is to use my legal career to eventually finance a return to academia to complete a PhD in Philosophy. I want to complete my masters before I enter the workforce so Osgoode seems quite attractive. However, to put it bluntly, York is so unbelievably depressing, run down, and disgustingly crowded. The thought of spending another 3-4 years there makes my skin crawl. Also, their admin and IT is a crapshoot. Western seems attractive to me because of it's small group program and smaller student population of both undergrads and law students. I have ADHD and a particular sensitivity to sound which makes a crowded campus quite stressful and distracting for me. Also, Western has 5k less in tuition and slightly cheaper cost of living which is important because I will be on residence for all three years. As for my legal interests... well I sincerely do not know the fact I don't want to do criminal (lower pay) and family (too depressing). Western is very corporate focused which could be good, assuming my interests lie in corporate law. But Osgoode is more diverse and has a potentially better reputation. I don't know which to pick. I seem to have good short term financial and mental health reasons for picking Western but I also have good long term financial and academic reasons to pick Osgoode. 

Are there any questions I should be asking? People I should consult? Am I missing relevant information or have I misjudged? I would sincerely appreciate any advice the forum could provide.

[Professor Lupin]

I would probably reflect on whether law school is even the best avenue for achieving your goals. 3 years of tuition + 3 years of living expenses + 3 years opportunity cost of not working. There are more efficient ways to fund a return to academia than pursuing a legal education. Wish you the best of luck on your journey.

[flyingmonkey]

Respectfully, thank you for your advice, but I am set on pursuing law. It's a decision I've thought about thoroughly over the last five years and I've not made it lightly. The primary reason I've chosen as I have is money. Academia is horribly oversaturated and offers precarious employment at the best of times. Law appears to be the field with the best renumeration and there is a significant skill crossover with philosophy. There are a quite a few more factors but those are the major ones at play.

[Ben]

Sorry, you mean you’re going to stop being a philosophy student once you finish your MA, then practice law to save money to finance a PhD years later? Seems like kind of an odd plan. Won’t you get quite out of touch with the field during those intervening several years? Why do you feel so confident that you’d still be a strong candidate at one of the few schools it’s worth getting a PhD in philosophy at? 

[GoatDuck]

Re: missing or misjudging relevant information, any PhD in Philosophy program in North America that's worth your time is fully funded (even some programs that aren't worth your time are fully funded), so you don't need to save up money to pursue a PhD. One option you may want to consider is to take a gap year to work, work on a good writing sample and apply broadly to PhD programs for the Fall 2025 term. 

Just to add to what I said above, you don't need an MA to be a strong PhD candidate. Whatever you end up deciding, I think it's not prudent to base your decision on the potential utility of having an MA in Philosophy for the purpose of gaining admission into a PhD program down the road. 

[Glaucon]

If you want to see if you like academia without the commitment of the PhD, there’s lots of funding available for MA programs in Canada. U of T, UBC, and SFU are all great options with good placement record into philosophy PhD programs. Each one would offer you basic funding (~15k) plus well compensated TA work. You can apply for the SSHRC CGS-M competition for an additional 18k in funding.

[flyingmonkey]

Glaucon and GoatDuck I really appreciate the advice concerning the masters and PHD. I must confess I hadn’t done enough research. I didn’t realize that a phd is another 4 years at least. Pursuing the masters as a way to dip my toes into academia seems like the most sensible choice.

Since my initial post I’ve been accepted to Osgoode for a dual JD/MA in philosophy with a 23k funding package for the MA. Academically it seems like the ideal fit for me. However, I’m very torn because doing a JD at western seems like the best fit for me in every other consideration: mental health, financials, living arrangements, etc. If I do the JD at Western I can eventually apply for an MA somewhere at a time of my choosing from a position of independence. But this will come with time and opportunity cost because I’ll have to repay my student loans and disrupt my career. Additionally, thank you Ben you raise a valid point about the deterioration of my skills in the field over an absence of at least four years.

To sum up my evaluation: doing a JD at Western then returning for an MA prioritizes non-academic and immediate financial considerations at the expense of academic considerations and long term opportunity costs. Whereas choosing the dual JD/MA at Osgoode prioritizes my academic considerations at the expense of my immediate finances, mental health, and various other non-academic considerations.

[scooter]

What's the reason you want to do the philosophy PhD if you aren't interested in academia? 

It seems like you want to go to Western (though I could be wrong - just going off what you've written). If that's the case, then I say go for it.

[flyingmonkey]

I want to do a PhD because I love philosophy and it’s my dream to make an impact on the field. But this year I worked full time for the first time and it made me realize that practical work satisfies me in a way that academic work doesn’t. As a Philosophy undergrad I found it a relief to deal with concrete issues with definite solutions inside a rules based structure. I’m at a point where my priorities have unexpectedly shifted towards practical non-academic work. So, you’re right to say it sounds like I’m heavily leaning towards western. I come off as ambivalent because it’s a bit disorienting to chase a goal for so long only to find it might not be what you want just as it comes within reach. 

[Glaucon]

11 hours ago, flyingmonkey said:

Glaucon and GoatDuck I really appreciate the advice concerning the masters and PHD. I must confess I hadn’t done enough research. I didn’t realize that a phd is another 4 years at least. Pursuing the masters as a way to dip my toes into academia seems like the most sensible choice.

Since my initial post I’ve been accepted to Osgoode for a dual JD/MA in philosophy with a 23k funding package for the MA. Academically it seems like the ideal fit for me. However, I’m very torn because doing a JD at western seems like the best fit for me in every other consideration: mental health, financials, living arrangements, etc. If I do the JD at Western I can eventually apply for an MA somewhere at a time of my choosing from a position of independence. But this will come with time and opportunity cost because I’ll have to repay my student loans and disrupt my career. Additionally, thank you Ben you raise a valid point about the deterioration of my skills in the field over an absence of at least four years.

To sum up my evaluation: doing a JD at Western then returning for an MA prioritizes non-academic and immediate financial considerations at the expense of academic considerations and long term opportunity costs. Whereas choosing the dual JD/MA at Osgoode prioritizes my academic considerations at the expense of my immediate finances, mental health, and various other non-academic considerations.

You may want to check if there’s any JD funding available through the philosophy department at York. 
 

If you do the joint JD/PhD through U of T for example, the philosophy department would pay for a year of your JD. It’s worth asking if York has a similar funding structure.

Also, if you do want to keep the PhD option open, 1) a York MA wouldn’t hinder your chances (lots of people come from lower ranked MA/BA institutions; the most important thing by far is producing a quality writing sample), 2) JD first then PhD second is a common route into philosophy academia, so you wouldn’t be out of place, and 3) it’s not uncommon to start a philosophy PhD in your late 20s or early 30s (the most important thing, again, is the writing sample).

[Glaucon]

I guess as just a personal add btw, I did my undergrad in philosophy thinking I would become a professor. After I got into my top choice MA program though, I realized I would (hypothetically) graduate at 30 from a PhD with no employable skills besides teaching, whilst only like 40-60% of grads from top 5 PhD programs ever get academic placements. It’s not like I hadn’t known those facts before, it just became real when I got into the MA. So I spent about 4 months wondering about what I should do next, and I decided to finish the MA and apply for JDs instead.
 

I didn’t really logic any of this out, I just seriously reconsidered my path and picked the option that called out to me most. 
 

Point is I guess, making this decision isn’t like writing and undergrad essay - nobody’s going to award you points for doing your research or making an incisive point. So long as you’re not making your decisions on false information, the truth is there’s just very little info out there about “what you should do.” Just be aware of the risks in any decision, then give it a shot. That’a the best you can do.

 

Aaand *scene*

[Guest2266]

hey @flyingmonkey i’m curious to hear what you ended up doing. This was a fascinating thread to read! Kudos to everyone for the interesting info 

[canuckfanatic]

@UofTsucks did you make a new account 40 minutes ago just to go on this tirade? did you realize that the above comments are from more than a year ago?

[BlockedQuebecois]

It's difficult to overstate how surprised I was when I realized this post was not directed at me or @CleanHands

[chaboywb]

1 minute ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

It's difficult to overstate how surprised I was when I realized this post was not directed at me or @CleanHands

Not going to lie, when I saw that post previewed under "Recent Posts", my first thought was "huh, wonder what BQ said today".

Instead, it is a truly unhinged and nonsensical rant against a poster who has been barely active over the past year. I am so very curious about what triggered that.

[canuckfanatic]

4 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

It's difficult to overstate how surprised I was when I realized this post was not directed at me or @CleanHands

I've saved it to my notes to direct at you or @CleanHands later, whichever of you I feel earns it first

Edited Tuesday at 04:56 PM by canuckfanatic

[ZineZ]

The account has been banned. I'll handle this further with the poster.

 

[helloall]

We want to read the weird rants, why delete them :(

[CleanHands]

Aww what the fuck, I got two @s with no context now.

[MyWifesBoyfriend]

On 3/12/2023 at 5:06 AM, Glaucon said:

Each one would offer you basic funding (~15k) plus well compensated TA work

U of T offers TA-ships for its philosophy MA students?

Edited Wednesday at 01:37 AM by MyWifesBoyfriend
Just realized this thread has been dead for a while. Feel free to ignore this question.