UBC vs. UofA

[pink222]

Hey everyone! I know this has been done before but I was hoping to get some insight into my specific situation as the deposit deadline is coming up for both schools. 

I have been accepted to both U of A and UBC with no upfront scholarship with either. I'm from Calgary so U of A would be nice for being closer to home but I have no particular interest in staying in Alberta. Although, if I went to UofA I would likely try to find a job in Calgary vs. if I went to UBC I'd work in Vancouver. I applied to grad housing at UofA and I think I'll get that but I didn't realize I had to apply for UBC housing so early and from what I've seen, I'll probably have to find off campus housing. I won't have a car in either place. 

In terms of a career, all I am really certain about right now is anything but corporate law. Perhaps criminal or family law? I don't imagine it'll be a crazy high paying job regardless and finances and quality of life in law school and post-grad is pretty important to me.

I've been super involved throughout undergrad and it's something that makes school really enjoyable for me so I hope to be able to join clinics, etc. from my first semester. Is UBC a better school for that? And is the community (student and/or larger legal community) better at one school/city?

I plan on visiting both schools' welcome days next week so maybe that will change things but I feel like I am sort of stuck in the middle between the two. If anyone has any advice, I'd really appreciate it!

[pink222]

Oh also another thing to mention is that while finances are important, its not completely prohibitive. So, if Vancouver will give me a lot more opportunities, a little bit of extra cost is worth it. But not so much that I'm like struggling to have fun because I can't afford it lol. 

[Chewy]

The number one (at least top 3) rule when choosing schools is to go to a school in the province that you want to work in. Since this isn't as important to you, as you're open to both BC and Alberta, look at tuition. They're both around $14K, so the difference is negligible. In terms of opportunities, I do not think one school opens more doors than the other, although someone else may be able to speak more about this.

If you're interested in criminal/family law, or something other than corporate law, then again, I don't think one school will give you more of an advantage over the other.

Cost of living wise, Vancouver is about as expensive as you can get with an incredibly low vacancy rate. Vancouver has the best transit system in Canada, so not having a car isn't a problem unless you decide to live beyond Coquitlam. Edmonton is much cheaper. Vancouver is a nicer city (IMO) than Edmonton though and there are more options for activities and whatnot, even though it will cost more overall.

This is a tough one. If I was in your position, I would choose UBC despite the cost. Vancouver's weather is much more enjoyable than Edmonton, and the UBC campus is beautiful. You'll get a great education at either school with plenty of opportunities if you achieve good grades. For me, it comes down to the quality of life for those three years. 

[Byzantine]

You mentioned wanting to do a clinical from your first semester. At UBC you can start volunteering at the Law Students Legal Advice Program (LSLAP) from 1L. You'll have the opportunity to assist clients who cannot afford a lawyer with their simple legal issues in a variety of areas (employment, criminal, human rights, contract, tenancy, wills, etc.). I was at LSLAP and sought out opportunities to get into court and really enjoyed that. I'm not sure if UofA would have a similar option, most law schools have clinical opportunities but only in upper years. 

Check out my post history or PM me if you want to learn more about my experience at Allard. I've really enjoyed it so far and would recommend the school. 

[СлаваУкраїні]

U of A’s equivalent to LSLAP is Student Legal Services, which you can participate in as a 1L and have the opportunity to go to court. So you’ll have that option either way.

[pink222]

Thanks so much everyone for your input! There's definitely a lot to think about. It's a tough decision to make (although a very lucky position) and I think the biggest thing on my mind right now is if I'd be closing myself off to opportunities by choosing UofA with a smaller legal market, less organizations, etc. or if I'd be limiting either the jobs I take or my quality of life by choosing expensive Vancouver living. Lots to consider for sure. 

[FranksRedHot]

I am at UBC, so I have some insight, some bias, and no info of U of A. 

Housing here sucks, you can't get around that. It is expensive and irrational at times. However, you do not need a car as long as you are on or near one of the east-west transit lines that go to UBC (there are many).

UBC has the Canadian Journal of Family Law, the only one in Canada, which is run by students. Not necessarily a huge deal, but something to think about. 

LSLAP is great in that you can start working on files right away, but has a high attrition rate of 1L's (I am not in LSLAP and can't directly comment on why). 

There are tons of networking and club events, far too many to be able to go to all of them, but you'll be able to pick and choose, which is great. There are clubs that bring on 1L's in meaningful positions, and some LSS (law student society) positions as well. 

I love it here.

 

Best of luck no matter where you go!

[pink222]

Thanks all!! I thought I would add in what I learned from the welcome days if anybody in the future faces a similar choice because I learned some neat things I hadn't heard elsewhere! 

UofA: 

- A major highlight for me were the career services. Its just two lawyers who run the career services and they seemed super enthusiastic and knowledgable about placing students wherever they want to work! The students I talked to also mentioned how accessible they were (ex. calling one of them 5 minutes before an interview to ask for tips).

- They have a mock court room in the building that looks like the real thing where moots happen!

- They have a mandatory 1L moot and if you progress, you get judged by real justices (not sure if this is the case for all other schools as well). 

- Again, I don't know if this is the case for all schools but I really liked how accessible the admin where. It felt really easy to just talk to the vice dean and other staff about questions. 

- They are one of very few law schools that do a formal 1L recruit. 

- This one I'm sure is the case across the board but they highlighted bringing in a lot of practitioners to teach courses (or portions of courses). One of the 3Ls also mentioned how nice it is to have profs that are actually well-versed in the career, have worked on cases, etc. so it's not just super theoretical. 

There was a ton of other stuff highlighted but this is stuff I hadn't heard before, at U of A, or other schools. I'll update after the UBC welcome day. Hope it helps others!!

[pink222]

Here's what I learned attending UBC's welcome: 

- Have a large variety of clinics but can only do them (except the LSLAP) in 2L and they might be slightly competitive to get into (?)

- Have the heaviest course load (7 classes I believe)

- Most students don't work a law-related job summer after 1L because Vancouver firms don't like to take first-years 

- They have the largest variety of moots you can partake in but only in 2L

- The housing situation (close to campus) is in fact as atrocious as I've heard but transit was very nice and safe

- Large career office with specialized public interest person and they put on weekly events bringing in practicing and non-practicing attorneys to speak

- Bring is a lot of practitioners to teach 

- The building is fairly new and SO nice

- A student said post-COVID all lectures are recorded and posted online

These are the things I didn't discover through my research prior to attending so hope it can help others. Also, I would highly recommend attending the welcome events if possible — I definitely think it is worth the time and money investment. I was able to pick up on a lot of things like vibes and personal interpretations of things (which I didn't include because they are subjective). I was very conflicted before but right as I left the UBC event, I knew which school I wanted to attend, and it was a choice that surprised me! Good luck to anyone else deciding between schools 🙂

Edited March 26, 2023 by pink222
Adding in another point

[Mal]

I went to both of these schools:

(1) UBC career services are amazing, UofA career services are mediocre at best;

(2) The courseloads and extra-curricular opportunities are practically identical;

(3) UBC has a bit broader course selection and better facilities; and

(4) Neither is going to matter in terms of opportunities in western Canada and probably not elsewhere.

[About3iqPoints]

1 hour ago, pink222 said:

- Have the heaviest course load (7 classes I believe)

- They have the largest variety of moots you can partake in but only in 2L

Worth mentioning that there is a motion in the UBC senate that addresses both of these points. The proposed plan is as follows: Transnational Law will now be an upper-year required course instead of a 1L course. The required 1L Moot in second term will now be worth 2 credits. The moot workload and structure will remain the same.

 

[pink222]

2 minutes ago, Mal said:

I went to both of these schools:

(1) UBC career services are amazing, UofA career services are mediocre at best;

(2) The courseloads and extra-curricular opportunities are practically identical;

(3) UBC has a bit broader course selection and better facilities; and

(4) Neither is going to matter in terms of opportunities in western Canada and probably not elsewhere.

Thanks for the input and clarification! You didn't find the extra courses at UBC to add more work? The students I talked to there highlighted it as a big thing! Also, if you wouldn't mind sharing, which school did you transfer from and were there any particular reasons? I still have 5 days to change my decision lol. 

[CleanHands]

5 minutes ago, Mal said:

(1) UBC career services are amazing

Not for criminal law or (especially) government. In particular, their materials on the DOJ interview process were wildly inaccurate and made me waste prep time (which was not appreciated during a period where everyone is under the gun).

My impression was always that Allard's Career Services Office cared about BigLaw and only BigLaw, and placing as many students there as possible.

[Byzantine]

1 hour ago, CleanHands said:

Not for criminal law or (especially) government. In particular, their materials on the DOJ interview process were wildly inaccurate and made me waste prep time (which was not appreciated during a period where everyone is under the gun).

My impression was always that Allard's Career Services Office cared about BigLaw and only BigLaw, and placing as many students there as possible.

I'd have to agree with this. Although for anyone interested in biglaw (and I know OP may not be) they are very helpful during the OCI process. I also found the CSO very helpful in reviewing my resume and cover letters for biglaw/gov/clerkship and giving great advice. I did find their guides quite accurate for the clerkship process in BC as well. 

[FranksRedHot]

8 hours ago, pink222 said:

A student said post-COVID all lectures are recorded and posted online

Some record and post them, some record but do not post them, and only give you access if you are sick. Some do not record but offer the option to zoom in if you cannot make it to class. Some do not record, have zoom, etc, at all. 

[CleanHands]

9 hours ago, pink222 said:

- A student said post-COVID all lectures are recorded and posted online

 

42 minutes ago, FranksRedHot said:

Some record and post them, some record but do not post them, and only give you access if you are sick. Some do not record but offer the option to zoom in if you cannot make it to class. Some do not record, have zoom, etc, at all. 

Yeah, most certainly lectures are not universally recorded and posted online. At the outset of COVID there was a big battle that took place behind the scenes as apparently the lectures are considered the intellectual property of the profs delivering them and not the property of the school (this is absurd to me when it's a work product from them acting in their capacity as professors there and it's difficult to fathom any legitimate financial interest the profs would have in them). Some profs put the needs of their students and their dedication to teaching above their own ego and others very emphatically refuse to.

One particular professor who brands themself as an advocate for refugees and prisoners refused to allow a friend to record a lecture for me when I needed to attend a court appearance pro bono for an indigent client through LSLAP, which really rubbed me the wrong way and torpedoed my opinion of them (I'm still pissed off enough when I recall it to mention it on the forums every time the subject of class recordings comes up).

Edited March 27, 2023 by CleanHands

[Turtles]

13 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

 

At the outset of COVID there was a big battle that took place behind the scenes as apparently the lectures are considered the intellectual property of the profs delivering them and not the property of the school (this is absurd to me when it's a work product from them acting in their capacity as professors there and it's difficult to fathom any legitimate financial interest the profs would have in them).

I think the primary fear is that a professor that just gives the same lecture year over year could be readily replaced by their own recording if the university owns it, but also https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2021/01/28/concordia-university-says-lectures-from-dead-professor-were-teaching-tool.html

[Mal]

19 hours ago, CleanHands said:

Not for criminal law or (especially) government. In particular, their materials on the DOJ interview process were wildly inaccurate and made me waste prep time (which was not appreciated during a period where everyone is under the gun).

My impression was always that Allard's Career Services Office cared about BigLaw and only BigLaw, and placing as many students there as possible.

Well, I compared them to UofA's which, in my year, took vacation the exact week that all OCI applications were due so were completely unavailable literally the only time I would have used them. 

Beyond that, the resources and seminars they put on were generally quite good and we basically had none of that at UofA.

[pink222]

3 hours ago, Mal said:

Beyond that, the resources and seminars they put on were generally quite good and we basically had none of that at UofA.

Wait does UofA not do any panels or talks? I know a high point for UBC was how much of this they did but after talking to students at UofA I was under the impression that there were at least a few.

[Renerik]

I'm not sure when Mal went through UofA, but presently UofA's career services do plenty of seminars and presentations. 

My corporate-eyed friends say they've been helpful. Mind you, this isn't an endorsement - they've given me erroneous advice to fairly basic questions for government employment (that might be on me though, I asked the advisor who's never worked in government).