Do rankings matter? What happened to Osgoode the past couple of years?

[Arnold Forrest]

Hi everyone! Just a quick question about rankings.

I'm currently a recent admit so please be kind, because I'm fairly in the dark about these kinds of things.

Do rankings matter for Canadian law schools for international reputation? For context, I feel like I want to keep the door open for US/International opportunities for a career and I've been paying attention to rankings.

While I know that Osgoode is one of the most well-known law schools in Canada, 2023 QS World University Rankings has Osgoode as 151-200th in the world and tied for 8th in Canada (https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/university-subject-rankings/2023/law-legal-studies?&countries=ca) and 2023 Times Higher Education has Osgoode tied for 10th in Canada and 126th-150th in the world (https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/best-universities/best-universities-law-degrees-canada). What do people think? Is Osgoode worth the hype?

These results just come as a surprise to me because I know historically Osgoode has done well in domestic rankings (Maclean's when they had rankings for law schools was consistently a top 3 school in Canada - https://macleans.ca/education/uniandcollege/2013-law-school-rankings/). Also not that GPA/LSAT scores are accurate indicators of how good a school is, but I see that the average LSAT and GPA for incoming students at Osgoode are lower than some other Canadian law programs like U of A and UCalgary.

Am I overthinking these things? Would love to hear everyone's opinion! Thanks in advance!

Edited April 10, 2023 by Arnold Forrest
forgot to add a link

[LMP]

These are all nonsense rankings and should be more or less ignored. They list Carlton (which doesn't have a law school) on their ranking. You can imagine how much reaserch they put in.

If you are looking for opportunities in the US, paticularly at larger NYC or international firms then Osgoode is a good choice. UofT is a better choice, but failing that Osgoode is the way to go. 

If you like stats (which I can appreciate) look at more practical things like placement numbers in the structured recurits. 

[Whist]

General rankings of Canadian law schools are useless. How a Canadian school ranks to you depends on what you want to do. If that's US opportunities, go with Biglaw placement numbers. I'd agree with LMP's suggestions on that. 

[Turtles]

2 hours ago, Arnold Forrest said:

Hi everyone! Just a quick question about rankings.

I'm currently a recent admit so please be kind, because I'm fairly in the dark about these kinds of things.

Do rankings matter for Canadian law schools for international reputation? For context, I feel like I want to keep the door open for US/International opportunities for a career and I've been paying attention to rankings.

While I know that Osgoode is one of the most well-known law schools in Canada, 2023 QS World University Rankings has Osgoode as 151-200th in the world and tied for 8th in Canada (https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/university-subject-rankings/2023/law-legal-studies?&countries=ca) and 2023 Times Higher Education has Osgoode tied for 10th in Canada and 126th-150th in the world (https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/best-universities/best-universities-law-degrees-canada). What do people think? Is Osgoode worth the hype?

These results just come as a surprise to me because I know historically Osgoode has done well in domestic rankings (Maclean's when they had rankings for law schools was consistently a top 3 school in Canada - https://macleans.ca/education/uniandcollege/2013-law-school-rankings/). Also not that GPA/LSAT scores are accurate indicators of how good a school is, but I see that the average LSAT and GPA for incoming students at Osgoode are lower than some other Canadian law programs like U of A and UCalgary.

Am I overthinking these things? Would love to hear everyone's opinion! Thanks in advance!

"The six indicators that determine the QS World University Ranking 2023 are: 

Academic reputation – Accounting for 40 per cent of the overall score, academic reputation looks at the teaching and research quality at the world’s universities. We collate over 130,000 expert opinions from the higher education space, creating the largest survey of academic opinion in the world.  

Employer reputation – We know that students want to graduate with the skills and knowledge required for the employment market. We assess how institutions prepare students for successful careers, and which institutions provide the most competent, innovative, and effective graduates.  

Faculty/student ratio – This indicator recognises that a high number of academics per student reduces the teaching burden and creates a more supportive student experience. We assess how institutions provide students with meaningful access to lecturers and tutors.  

Citations per faculty – We measure university research quality with a citation per faculty metric, taking the total number of academic citations in papers produced by a university in a five-year period. 

International student ratio & International faculty ratio – A highly international university creates a number of benefits. It demonstrates the ability to attract quality students and staff from across the world, and it implies a highly global outlook. Strong international institutions provide a multinational environment, building international sympathies and global awareness."

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that as an entering law student, the factors you care about are probably not the above six. The QS ranking is intended for something tangibly different than what law schools do -- law schools are often closer to trade schools (in which you care more about employment outcomes and practical-learning opportunities) rather than research-based institutions, at least at the LLB/JD level.

It's also not clear, but it would seem the QS ranking includes (if not is limited to) non-LLB/JD undergraduate programs in "law", e.g., criminology and law and society and such, which is significantly different than commenting on just LLB/JD programs. UCalgary vs York criminology is a very different subject than comparing the respective law schools, including employment outcomes (e.g., York criminology might be a bad undergrad if you want to become a cop given the number of GTA colleges that might give actual practical training, while UCalgary might be better regarded by police departments if there are few police training colleges, just as an example).

[Arnold Forrest]

Thanks for the information everyone! Osgoode is one of my offers right now and was wondering if it was actually worth all the good things people say about it!

[Ryn]

As an Osgoode alumn, I can confirm that those rankings are just like, what?

Osgoode is a great school - if it's among your offers I would definitely not set it aside because of some random rankings on the internet - especially with the issues LMP raised about the efficacy of them in the first place.

The school is well respected, a lot of graduates practice at top tier firms in the US, Canada, and abroad. If you want to practice on Bay Street or in NYC, Osgoode is definitely in the top two, perhaps three (depending on your view of McGill internationally), schools where statistically you'll have a better chance of doing so.

[Renerik]

Top two?! Calisse de tabarnak les Ontariens font tous afin de diminuer le prestige des écoles au Québec. 

Un pote avec un bacc en droit de l'UQAM peut se retrover à Paris. Imagine un gars avec un bacc à l'UdeM ou McGill, le monde l'appartient. 

1. UAlberta
2. UdeM/McGill
9. UofT/Oz

[JusticeBeaver]

8 hours ago, Arnold Forrest said:

The first link is ranking "law and legal studies", which isn't necessarily Juris Doctor programs. Many universities have law and legal studies undergraduate programs, which is what this ranking seems to be referring to, in which case, the ranking may very well be accurate for BA programs. The second link looks like it directly took the information from the first one (QS) blindly without doing any additional research or recognizing that legal studies and law degrees are not perfectly interchangeable. As others have said, the links are not accurate to JD programs in Canada.

You may want to research more about Osgoode and other schools individually before making any decisions. Right from the school's website (and official recruit stats) is probably a better place to get an idea about if what they offer is the best fit for you. 

 

[ltmaverick25]

1 hour ago, Renerik said:

Top two?! Calisse de tabarnak les Ontariens font tous afin de diminuer le prestige des écoles au Québec. 

Un pote avec un bacc en droit de l'UQAM peut se retrover à Paris. Imagine un gars avec un bacc à l'UdeM ou McGill, le monde l'appartient. 

1. UAlberta
2. UdeM/McGill
9. UofT/Oz

Pourriez-vous préciser comment classer l'Université de l'Alberta au premier rang ? C'est l'une des écoles dans lesquelles j'ai été accepté et je suis également intéressé par les opportunités internationales / américaines.

[Mbu1]

6 hours ago, ltmaverick25 said:

6 hours ago, ltmaverick25 said:

Pourriez-vous préciser comment classer l'Université de l'Alberta au premier rang ? C'est l'une des écoles dans lesquelles j'ai été accepté et je suis également intéressé par les opportunités internationales / américaines.

 

Concernant la première place de l'université de l'Aberta, il s'agissait évidemment d'une plaisanterie. Contrairement aux États-Unis, aucune école de droit canadienne n'est médiocre en termes d'opportunités d'emploi, mais les plus connues en dehors de l'Amérique du Nord sont : Toronto et McGill

Edited April 11, 2023 by Mbu1

[SNAILS]

Ask yourself:

(1) What city do you want to live in for three years?

(2) What city do you want to practice in?

(3) What field of law do you want to practice?

If Toronto is a good a place for you as anywhere and you want to practice in a field of law where the big forms tend to dominate then Oz is a good choice. Don't overthink the rankings.

[Case]

Rankings don't matter.

Go to school where you want to practice - location can matter for very obvious practical reasons. If money is a factor, then consider tuition and cost of living and financial support at the institution along with proximity to where you want to practice.  

Schools like McGill and UofT place a lot of students in coveted summer or articling jobs but that's because... you know... the smartest students go there, and they impress in interviews and put together good looking CVs, etc. It has nothing to do with the rankings, really. If you want to practice around London then most lawyers or firms in the area will love if you attended Western. 

 

By the way... has this forum replaced lawstudents.ca in activity? Or is there somewhere else? I used to post there back in the day.

[SNAILS]

On 4/20/2023 at 5:07 PM, Case said:

By the way... has this forum replaced lawstudents.ca in activity? Or is there somewhere else? I used to post there back in the day.

Ya. The admin of lawstudents.ca did not want to maintain the forums anymore, and this forum was started by some regular posters from that forum.