2L Summer - I'd like to get a second job in addition to my Big Law job

[traintogo]

I have asked something like this before, but just wanted clarity because I am afraid to ask my recruiter. 

I have a 2L job this summer with a Big Law firm in Vancouver (yay!), but for a variety of reasons, I need to make more money than I will with the firm this summer, so I would like to get a second job (either in law research with a professor or at my university's student society helping out with clubs). 

Do I really need to get permission from the law society to get a second job during my temporary articles? Do I also need to tell my recruiter/principal? I would love to know other people's experience with this. Thank you!

[About3iqPoints]

I would just ask your recruiter - they will be in the best position to give you an answer and contact the law society if need be. Also, I would do this sooner rather than later, as the law society doesn't move quickly if you need approval. 

[VIPigeon]

Per the LSBC, “a person entitled in temporary articles had the rights, privileges and responsibilities of an articled student.” Under the Details of Articling, it says you cannot accept employment from any person other than your principal without approval from the Law Society and that the employment also needs to be approved by your principal. 
 

So yep, you need to get permission. It’s absolutely not worth breaking their rules and having them find out.

 

[Rashabon]

You are working at a law firm as a law student. One of the key issues of private practice is conflicts and managing that risk. There's a reason law firms don't want their employees running off doing whatever they want. I'll let other people comment on LSBC requirements but as it relates to your firm? Absolutely. I'd fire you (likely for cause) for taking on another law job without disclosing it if I were your firm.

[Turtles]

I would suggest thinking of your 2L summer as an extended job interview rather than a normal job. The impression you leave on the firm and the people you work with will likely mean more than anything else that summer, including your actual productivity doing work. Thinking through that lens, even if another job doesn't cut into your workday and doesn't create a conflict (which you could only know by properly declaring it to the firm and getting consent to proceed, persuant to the firm's policies), you want to be weary that it may  leave the wrong impression (e.g., people making unfair assumptions), cut into your availability to network or socialize after hours, or otherwise make you appear less committed or engaged. 

As an example, I built rapport with some lawyers, so when surprises came up at 7pm, they felt confident they could give me a sudden call to help sort out something urgent rather than try to go through the student coordinator to find some random student. This then led to some particularly favorable comments to the national head of a practice area and noted in my formal feedback. If your relationship starts off with "I have another job, so after hours I'm probably unavailable" or "I'm considering academia so I'm doing an RA and need to get home on time to keep writing", then you're shooting yourself in the foot when it comes to building relationships and your reputation. 

Personally, I'd opt to either do the other gig (e.g., RA) on an accelerated schedule at the beginning or end of summer (not overlapping with your employment at the firm) or during the school year, or both. And even then, I would declare it to your student coordinator as an FYI. 

Employment is fundamentally a relationship of bilateral trust. As law students we sometimes focus only in "what is legally required?", but this is an example where "what will put me on the best footing?" may be the more relevant question. 

[FlyingFish]

If you are actually a summer articling student I don’t think you are allowed to have a second job without permission from your principal and the law society.

[Ohshmagoda]

I think it’s pretty clear that seeking permission is a must.  If you’re going to seek such permission, you will want a different reason than “needing to make more money this summer”. Your goal should be to convince the firm that the second opportunity will further your development in a way that is beneficial to your future career with the firm. 

You should be aware that even asking for an accommodation of this nature, if not handled carefully, could give the impression that you’re naive and/or entitled. Associates who have proven themselves to their firm over many years are often pretty nervous about asking for accommodations, and reasonable requests are often refused. The opportunity you currently have is probably considered by your firm to be a privilege, and they are expecting you to put your best foot forward.

[Ben]

I've worked as an RA during both of my summers at law firms. I sought and received permission both times without a hitch and never had it remotely conflict with my responsibilities at work. Both times, the lawyers from whom I sought permission thought it was nice that I was interested enough in what my profs were working on to do it on the side. I would recommend making sure the professor you're working with is completely aware that you have a summer job and so can't be expected to be available for anything approaching full-time hours. 

Contrary to the spirit of some of what you're seeing in this thread, I would be really surprised if anyone at your firm looked negatively at a request like that, as long as you made it clear that you'd sorted things out such that you don't have another full-time obligation. I think the bigger hurdle for you is that you want to do it for money, and part-time RA work isn't exactly high-octane pay. I don't think there's any chance that you could balance anything like full-time RA hours with a summer job, and I would definitely not seek permission to work that much on the side.

[Pecan Boy]

6 hours ago, Rashabon said:

You are working at a law firm as a law student. One of the key issues of private practice is conflicts and managing that risk. There's a reason law firms don't want their employees running off doing whatever they want. I'll let other people comment on LSBC requirements but as it relates to your firm? Absolutely. I'd fire you (likely for cause) for taking on another law job without disclosing it if I were your firm.

You would fire a student, likely for cause, for working as a part-time RA? Lol

[Pecan Boy]

5 hours ago, Turtles said:

As an example, I built rapport with some lawyers, so when surprises came up at 7pm, they felt confident they could give me a sudden call

This sounds like it would suck!

[Turtles]

1 minute ago, Pecan Boy said:

This sounds like it would suck!

It would have been dumb for me to pursue Bay St if I couldn't tolerate off-hour work.

[Rashabon]

13 minutes ago, Pecan Boy said:

You would fire a student, likely for cause, for working as a part-time RA? Lol

Read the full sentence, pal.

I'd fire you (likely for cause) for [working as a part-time RA] without disclosing it if I were your firm.

[Pecan Boy]

7 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

Read the full sentence, pal.

I'd fire you (likely for cause) for [working as a part-time RA] without disclosing it if I were your firm.

Well, yeah, obviously you wouldn’t fire them for cause if they did disclose it. I thought that was obviously implied in my response.

That’s still an…interesting position, especially since your stated reason for not wanting students to be employed elsewhere is because of the risk of conflicts - what conflicts do you suspect would arise from a 2L RA gig?

Edited April 12, 2023 by Pecan Boy

[Rashabon]

3 minutes ago, Pecan Boy said:

Well, yeah, obviously you wouldn’t fire them for cause if they did disclose it. I thought that was obviously implied in my response.

That’s still an…interesting position, especially since your stated reason for not wanting students to be employed elsewhere is because of the risk of conflicts - what conflicts do you suspect would arise from a 2L RA gig?

That is one reason, and my post was focused on “law jobs”, not exclusively limited to RA gigs. But there are other reasons - it is contrary to your employment contract, you’re expected to be available and prioritize firm work, participate in firm events, etc. It’s really not that crazy to require that a full time salaried employee not take on other gigs without permission that could conflict with the primary job.

[Ramesses]

Is there another way you could get the money? Scholarships? Loans? Etc?

The reason I ask is the majority of big firms have a social component during summering that will take up some of your evenings. Even outside of firm activities, there are different informal activities with your cohort or other people in your firm. While these social commitments do not have an immediate impact on hirebacks, they will affect your relationship with your cohort and the people at your firm.

[LMP]

I can't really see it being worth it for the small amount you'd be able to make. 

I won't pry into your reasons but Vancouver biglaw should be giving you $1660/week right? How much are you really eeking out from a side job? I'm just not seeing the value. 

Especially when you consider the potential future losses. I wouldn't risk a lucrative job for a couple of hundred extra every month. Even if you're allowed to take the second job, why jeprodize your chance at a hire back? 

[Professor Lupin]

6 hours ago, LMP said:

I can't really see it being worth it for the small amount you'd be able to make. 

I won't pry into your reasons but Vancouver biglaw should be giving you $1660/week right? How much are you really eeking out from a side job? I'm just not seeing the value. 

Especially when you consider the potential future losses. I wouldn't risk a lucrative job for a couple of hundred extra every month. Even if you're allowed to take the second job, why jeprodize your chance at a hire back? 

I agree with this. I'm not sure the benefits to you (which I assume is strictly monetary) outweigh the costs (lost social time, potential issue with employer).

As a part-time RA over the summer I'd assume you'd make $20/hour and maybe work 15 hours a week for 12 to 16 weeks?

So you're looking at roughly an additional $3,600 to $4,800 over the summer. Personally would not do it if your only motivation is coin, but if the RA position is in a field you're particularly interested in then maybe the cost / benefit analysis changes. However, your post leads me to believe you're looking at this from a strictly monetary perspective which IMO is really not that much money. Best of luck. 

[Ben]

10 hours ago, Rashabon said:

it is contrary to your employment contract, you’re expected to be available and prioritize firm work, participate in firm events, etc. It’s really not that crazy to require that a full time salaried employee not take on other gigs without permission that could conflict with the primary job.

I hate when a summer student at my firm irreparably damages the good faith inherent to the employment relationship by missing drinks at King Taps so they can research whether punitive damages can fit into the rubric of corrective justice, or something ☹️

10 hours ago, Ramesses said:

Is there another way you could get the money? Scholarships? Loans? Etc?

The reason I ask is the majority of big firms have a social component during summering that will take up some of your evenings. Even outside of firm activities, there are different informal activities with your cohort or other people in your firm.

It is obviously not a good idea to take on more debt to attend more evening social events, lol, and the idea that you will miss out on some key aspect of socializing with your peers by doing part time RA work is laughable. Any summer student who doesn't have 15 spare hours a week (at a bare minimum) is doing something disastrously wrong already. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Ben

[Rashabon]

51 minutes ago, Ben said:

I hate when a summer student at my firm irreparably damages the good faith inherent to the employment relationship by missing drinks at King Taps so they can research whether punitive damages can fit into the rubric of corrective justice, or something ☹️

Yes. Just disclose it to the firm. This is really not rocket science or difficult. Being snarky about it just makes you look like a petulant child. I don't care if students take on extra legal work outside the bounds of the firm if they've been cleared to do so. The job of being a big firm lawyer isn't limited to pushing paper during a 9-5 business hour day and it's something a lot of junior associates and students lost sight of as a result of the pandemic.

[Ben]

17 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

Yes. Just disclose it to the firm. This is really not rocket science or difficult. Being snarky about it just makes you look like a petulant child. I don't care if students take on extra legal work outside the bounds of the firm if they've been cleared to do so. The job of being a big firm lawyer isn't limited to pushing paper during a 9-5 business hour day and it's something a lot of junior associates and students lost sight of as a result of the pandemic.

No one advised against disclosing it. There’s just no chance that failing to disclose a part-time RAship is cause for dismissal. 

[Pantalaimon]

I don't know what employment contract they're offering to summers these days, but mine definitely had the provision on not taking other employment and it was pretty broad. So doesn't the question really boil down to: "do I really have to adhere to my employment contract"?

[VIPigeon]

55 minutes ago, Ben said:

No one advised against disclosing it. There’s just no chance that failing to disclose a part-time RAship is cause for dismissal. 

It explicitly goes against the law society rules, so I think it would be. 

44 minutes ago, Pantalaimon said:

I don't know what employment contract they're offering to summers these days, but mine definitely had the provision on not taking other employment and it was pretty broad. So doesn't the question really boil down to: "do I really have to adhere to my employment contract"?

Yep, my Van biglaw summer employment contract says we can’t work elsewhere during the summer term without written approval from the firm. 

 

[Ramesses]

On 4/12/2023 at 8:42 AM, Ben said:

I hate when a summer student at my firm irreparably damages the good faith inherent to the employment relationship by missing drinks at King Taps so they can research whether punitive damages can fit into the rubric of corrective justice, or something ☹️

It is obviously not a good idea to take on more debt to attend more evening social events, lol, and the idea that you will miss out on some key aspect of socializing with your peers by doing part time RA work is laughable. Any summer student who doesn't have 15 spare hours a week (at a bare minimum) is doing something disastrously wrong already. 

1) OP never said he or she had debt.

2) every firm has different work and social cultures. both are likely more to the firm than the student's second job. 

[Ben]

11 minutes ago, Ramesses said:

1) OP never said he or she had debt.

2) every firm has different work and social cultures. both are likely more to the firm than the student's second job. 

I made a leap of faith and assumed that a person doing an expensive professional degree who's thinking of getting a second job probably has debt. Regardless, my view that it's obviously stupid to take on debt so that you can attend all of your firm's summer events (or whatever) doesn't depend on already having any! That's a dumb thing to do whether you're in debt to begin with or not. 

It's true that every firm has different work and social cultures. Most of them will allow you do some part time RA work on your free time without caring at all.

[KOMODO]

On 4/12/2023 at 11:42 AM, Ben said:

...

It is obviously not a good idea to take on more debt to attend more evening social events, lol, and the idea that you will miss out on some key aspect of socializing with your peers by doing part time RA work is laughable. Any summer student who doesn't have 15 spare hours a week (at a bare minimum) is doing something disastrously wrong already. 

I disagree with this, pretty much entirely. I would instead say that it's obviously not a good idea to take on some minor project/job with minimal payout at the expense of forming relationships and practicing technical skills that will benefit you in your actual career job. 

Also, when I was a summer and articling student, I definitely did not have 15+ spare hours a week to do a second job. Any spare time I had was used for rest, seeing my family, etc. and those recharging moments were absolutely needed. I was on call all the time, and because I was happy to jump into stuff, I had lots of cool experiences and learned a bunch. I've been working in private practice for about a decade now and never worked harder than when I was a student, which totally makes sense because everything takes forever because you don't know anything. Did I do something disastrously wrong? I certainly don't think so, sitting here doing a job I really enjoy and living a very comfortable lifestyle with decent work/life balance.