UVic vs UOttawa for government jobs?

[knockknock]

Hi, I'm hoping to work for provincial government as a public sector lawyer in the future and I'm wondering would I have a better chance of getting into government at UVic or UOttawa? I did co-op in federal government during undergrad and got to shadow government lawyers, great experience and would love to work there myself. I know both schools say that they have a great environmental law program but I wasn't sure if there are government job opportunities in environmental law? Which school places more students in government summer positions?

The difference in tuition is not a big factor for me, plus from what I have heard the living/housing costs in Victoria are higher so it balances out more or less.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

[biglawfirmstakeme]

Hey! I am in the same boat (just not interested in environmental law lol).

If you already worked in the federal government, I feel like our chances significantly increase since we know a ton of lawyers! I personally was able to talk to them and lobby for a summer position now waaay before actually starting law school haha.

I think the fact that we have a security clearance and connections will definitely help, depending on your clearance level you will have it valid for about 5 years or more. I know for a fact that my boss would do anything to pass my CV around or arrange something in our office too so I am not too worried.

I will be attending uvic probably 🙂 and I don’t think it matters that much where as soon as you got those connections. Btw, living costs do not balance out if you are renting a room, since Ottawa also became crazy with 750$+ rents.. So its only 2-3k difference in rent if you are renting a room per semester now - and the tuition is 10k+ cheaper at uvic.

If you ask which school places more people in public service the answer i think would be Ottawa though, but I would say that is for those who have no prior experience with feds.

[Turtles]

I mean, the obvious answer is there are more BC Public Service jobs proximal to Victoria than ON Public Service jobs proximal to Ottawa, unless you jump on a train then the larger ON Public Service looks nicer. But the question is a bit odd. 

It's one thing to say you're interested in working for the government, but why are you narrowing to "provincial government" at this point?

Traumatized by Phoenix? Hate the LPC? Issues getting federal security clearance? Can't speak French, don't want to learn, and don't want to work in an English-essential area? It can't be subject matter -- there's so much federal encroachment it's hard to imagine (i) there's something the province does (ii) that would be of interest to you (iii) that the feds do not at least touch. In other words, be weary about making assumptions about what is/isn't federal or provincial. The federal public service is massive and some of the agencies or tribunals or crown corps that fall under it may make your head spin.

I appreciate the desire to cast a narrow net, but between now and the end of 3L (or beyond!), your net may readily change from "it has to be provincial government" to "anyone, please, anyone, just hire me, I'll work for free and wash your car". If government tickles your fancy, in general, I can't imagine taking Victoria over Ottawa because you want a government job but also want to proactively rule out fed opportunities in and around the National Capital Area. What are you going to do if you strike out getting a provincial government job? 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Turtles

[knockknock]

3 hours ago, biglawfirmstakeme said:

Hey! I am in the same boat (just not interested in environmental law lol).

If you already worked in the federal government, I feel like our chances significantly increase since we know a ton of lawyers! I personally was able to talk to them and lobby for a summer position now waaay before actually starting law school haha.

I think the fact that we have a security clearance and connections will definitely help, depending on your clearance level you will have it valid for about 5 years or more. I know for a fact that my boss would do anything to pass my CV around or arrange something in our office too so I am not too worried.

I will be attending uvic probably 🙂 and I don’t think it matters that much where as soon as you got those connections. Btw, living costs do not balance out if you are renting a room, since Ottawa also became crazy with 750$+ rents.. So its only 2-3k difference in rent if you are renting a room per semester now - and the tuition is 10k+ cheaper at uvic.

If you ask which school places more people in public service the answer i think would be Ottawa though, but I would say that is for those who have no prior experience with feds.

Hey great to know I'm not the only one interested in government! It sounds like you are in a better position than I am though because my connections from government co-op happen to be exclusively in environmental law, and it doesn't sound like there are many job opportunities in environment (at least not for new grad lawyers) 🥲 

Do you mind sharing what kind of summer position you got working for the government lawyers? I did not work directly for the legal team during my co-op but was able to shadow the lawyers, the legal team in that department did not hire co-op/summer students at all 🥲

I was more hoping to work for provincial government in Ontario/BC because unfortunately Ottawa weather really isn't my thing, but I'm willing to take three years of ice and snow if UOttawa gives me a better shot of getting into public service 

[knockknock]

4 hours ago, Turtles said:

I mean, the obvious answer is there are more BC Public Service jobs proximal to Victoria than ON Public Service jobs proximal to Ottawa, unless you jump on a train then the larger ON Public Service looks nicer. But the question is a bit odd. 

It's one thing to say you're interested in working for the government, but why are you narrowing to "provincial government" at this point?

Traumatized by Phoenix? Hate the LPC? Issues getting federal security clearance? Can't speak French, don't want to learn, and don't want to work in an English-essential area? It can't be subject matter -- there's so much federal encroachment it's hard to imagine (i) there's something the province does (ii) that would be of interest to you (iii) that the feds do not at least touch. In other words, be weary about making assumptions about what is/isn't federal or provincial. The federal public service is massive and some of the agencies or tribunals or crown corps that fall under it may make your head spin.

I appreciate the desire to cast a narrow net, but between now and the end of 3L (or beyond!), your net may readily change from "it has to be provincial government" to "anyone, please, anyone, just hire me, I'll work for free and wash your car". If government tickles your fancy, in general, I can't imagine taking Victoria over Ottawa because you want a government job but also want to proactively rule out fed opportunities in and around the National Capital Area. What are you going to do if you strike out getting a provincial government job? 

Hi yeah the provincial government thing is more like my ideal scenario and I know things don't always work out, once I actually start law school I'll probably shift to "anyone please just hire me" real quick.

But yeah some of your points are the reason why I'm hoping to work for provincial rather than federal, mainly that I'm reluctant to stay in Ottawa long term and I don't speak French. I'm from BC and the Ottawa weather is not great to say the least (just my opinion everyone is different), I know federal government positions are very competitive, and I'm just not very motivated to compete for a position in Ottawa. The last time I took French was probably 8th grade so I'm outta luck there, the department I worked for during co-op really emphasized bilingualism so I'm concerned that I will have limited opportunities even getting into federal government positions.

I am very interested in federal government opportunities that are English essential could you please elaborate on that? From my experience in federal gov I was under the impression that working proficiency in both French and English are necessary to get more job opportunities, correct me if I'm wrong! 

It is counterintuitive to give up UOttawa for UVic when I want to work in government, which is why I'm having a really hard time deciding. It sounds like the main/only path to public sector law through UOttawa is the federal government in NCR, while on the other hand I'm also uncertain whether UVic gives me a good chance of getting into BC provincial government at all since obviously there are less positions in provincial.

Would you say that there is a better chance of entering BC public service law through UVic than entering Ontario public service (not limited to Ottawa region) through UOttawa?

Any advice is greatly appreciated!  

[whereverjustice]

When I was reviewing applications for a public sector articling position, I was surprised to see the breadth of relevant public law courses on the UOttawa transcripts. I haven't directly compared UOttawa and UVic's course offerings but you might want to do that.

4 hours ago, knockknock said:

It sounds like the main/only path to public sector law through UOttawa is the federal government in NCR

I am not sure I understand what you are suggesting here, but going to UOttawa certainly wouldn't be an obstacle to getting a provincial government job. I don't think any province, especially the larger ones, is going to be saying "we only recruit from the law school in our provincial capital". 

[knockknock]

18 hours ago, whereverjustice said:

When I was reviewing applications for a public sector articling position, I was surprised to see the breadth of relevant public law courses on the UOttawa transcripts. I haven't directly compared UOttawa and UVic's course offerings but you might want to do that.

I am not sure I understand what you are suggesting here, but going to UOttawa certainly wouldn't be an obstacle to getting a provincial government job. I don't think any province, especially the larger ones, is going to be saying "we only recruit from the law school in our provincial capital". 

Thank you! I will definitely have a look at their course offerings, could you give me an idea of what courses are considered relevant for public law?

Yeah I'm sure it is possible to get into provincial government through UOttawa, I'm just not sure if chances of getting into provincial government through UOttawa are greater than through UVic? Between the two I think UOttawa has a much greater advantage for federal 

[whereverjustice]

2 hours ago, knockknock said:

could you give me an idea of what courses are considered relevant for public law?

Courses that specifically address government practice would be ideal. Anything about constitutional law and administrative law is great. Statutory interpretation is definitely relevant. And really any courses that are based on a comprehensive regulatory regime where the government makes decisions (e.g. immigration and refugee law) can be really helpful - even if you don't practice in those areas, you get to see how the courts approach government operations.

2 hours ago, knockknock said:

I'm just not sure if chances of getting into provincial government through UOttawa are greater than through UVic? Between the two I think UOttawa has a much greater advantage for federal

I don't know either. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't expect UVic to provide any advantage over UOttawa for getting into a provincial government, except (1) if UVic has some kind of placement program in the BC MAG (I don't know if it does), or (2) to the extent that it would be somewhat more convenient for you to seek BC government summer/articling positions if you are already in Victoria.

[knockknock]

On 4/19/2023 at 1:38 PM, whereverjustice said:

Courses that specifically address government practice would be ideal. Anything about constitutional law and administrative law is great. Statutory interpretation is definitely relevant. And really any courses that are based on a comprehensive regulatory regime where the government makes decisions (e.g. immigration and refugee law) can be really helpful - even if you don't practice in those areas, you get to see how the courts approach government operations.

I don't know either. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't expect UVic to provide any advantage over UOttawa for getting into a provincial government, except (1) if UVic has some kind of placement program in the BC MAG (I don't know if it does), or (2) to the extent that it would be somewhat more convenient for you to seek BC government summer/articling positions if you are already in Victoria.

Thank you for the advice!

I'm not too familiar with how BC government summer/articling positions work, I know that the BC courts are in Vancouver rather than Victoria though

[Gamgee]

UVic offers a fairly comprehensive co-op program where students can match in their 1L summer with government positions (like BC MAG). The benefit of this program is that spots are reserved, reducing competition with students from other schools. The school also has many environmental law classes (such as water law, I don't think any other school offers this class), a strong environmental law clinic, and lots of students interested in this field. 

However, UVic is going through significant construction right now, creating a lot of disruption and the class selection process has been problematic. These issues may be reduced when you're in your second year, but no guarantees. 

Finally, the tuition cost is a big benefit, especially if you are pursuing a public interest position where you may make less than your big law counterparts. 

24 minutes ago, knockknock said:

Thank you for the advice!

I'm not too familiar with how BC government summer/articling positions work, I know that the BC courts are in Vancouver rather than Victoria though

In BC, many students don't have 1L summer jobs, most BC big law and government only do 2L recruit. There are courts in Victoria, and the legislature is in Victoria so there are plenty of opportunities in the city. 

[reaperlaw]

On 4/18/2023 at 3:24 PM, knockknock said:

Hi yeah the provincial government thing is more like my ideal scenario and I know things don't always work out, once I actually start law school I'll probably shift to "anyone please just hire me" real quick.

But yeah some of your points are the reason why I'm hoping to work for provincial rather than federal, mainly that I'm reluctant to stay in Ottawa long term and I don't speak French. I'm from BC and the Ottawa weather is not great to say the least (just my opinion everyone is different), I know federal government positions are very competitive, and I'm just not very motivated to compete for a position in Ottawa. The last time I took French was probably 8th grade so I'm outta luck there, the department I worked for during co-op really emphasized bilingualism so I'm concerned that I will have limited opportunities even getting into federal government positions.

I am very interested in federal government opportunities that are English essential could you please elaborate on that? From my experience in federal gov I was under the impression that working proficiency in both French and English are necessary to get more job opportunities, correct me if I'm wrong! 

It is counterintuitive to give up UOttawa for UVic when I want to work in government, which is why I'm having a really hard time deciding. It sounds like the main/only path to public sector law through UOttawa is the federal government in NCR, while on the other hand I'm also uncertain whether UVic gives me a good chance of getting into BC provincial government at all since obviously there are less positions in provincial.

Would you say that there is a better chance of entering BC public service law through UVic than entering Ontario public service (not limited to Ottawa region) through UOttawa?

Any advice is greatly appreciated!  

Contrary to what most people think, French isn't really needed for federal government lawyers. Legal Excellence doesn't put a huge premium on it and you'll see a lot (if not most) of LP-01 positions as English Essential. You'll never be a manager without French, but you'll still make LP-02 without French, for sure, and there are definitely unilingual LP-03s+ as well.

[knockknock]

21 hours ago, Gamgee said:

UVic offers a fairly comprehensive co-op program where students can match in their 1L summer with government positions (like BC MAG). The benefit of this program is that spots are reserved, reducing competition with students from other schools. The school also has many environmental law classes (such as water law, I don't think any other school offers this class), a strong environmental law clinic, and lots of students interested in this field. 

However, UVic is going through significant construction right now, creating a lot of disruption and the class selection process has been problematic. These issues may be reduced when you're in your second year, but no guarantees. 

Finally, the tuition cost is a big benefit, especially if you are pursuing a public interest position where you may make less than your big law counterparts. 

In BC, many students don't have 1L summer jobs, most BC big law and government only do 2L recruit. There are courts in Victoria, and the legislature is in Victoria so there are plenty of opportunities in the city. 

Hi thank you for your reply! Really appreciate the tip about how BC recruits work!

I had a great experience with co-op in undergrad up until covid hit and everything basically shut down 🙃 I did notice at the UVic welcome event it sounded like most co-op positions are not government positions, which is to be expected since government positions are limited but I just wasn't sure if that means it's usually only a few positions in co-op that are actually government? Odds of getting into a government co-op position?

I have heard that both UVic and UOttawa have excellent environmental law programs, I don't know if there are job opportunities in government environmental law for new graduates? It seems to be a niche field added to that public sector job positions are already more limited than private. 

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by knockknock

[knockknock]

22 hours ago, reaperlaw said:

Contrary to what most people think, French isn't really needed for federal government lawyers. Legal Excellence doesn't put a huge premium on it and you'll see a lot (if not most) of LP-01 positions as English Essential. You'll never be a manager without French, but you'll still make LP-02 without French, for sure, and there are definitely unilingual LP-03s+ as well.

Thank you for the reply! Do you know if federal public sector law positions are located primarily in Ottawa? Or are there some in other cities too?

[Mal]

You should keep a more open mind on what your career path will be. Environmental law is fairly niche, as is government generally, landing both would not be common. 

[Chewy]

Which province would you rather live in?

City-wise, Victoria sucks. Ottawa's better. 

[Chewy]

I meant which province would you rather work in after law school.

My opinion about the cities remains the same.

[TheDevilIKnow]

17 hours ago, knockknock said:

Do you know if federal public sector law positions are located primarily in Ottawa?

Yes, most federal public sector law positions are in Ottawa. As for what positions do exist in BC, I believe all the federal LP positions are in Vancouver; none are in Victoria. The DOJ more or less has one office per province, at least in the West. There are also counsel positions with various ministries and agencies, but I believe most or all of these are in the NCR as well. I am not actually aware of any source that indicates this for sure, however.

Also agree that french is not really relevant to federal jobs in the West. Federal positions either require french or they don't; in Vancouver they don't, and given that I don't know that bilingualism is objectively helpful.

Contrary to what it seems you've head, there are lots and lots and lots of government co-op positions at UVic. It seems to be a great way for the Province, provincial agencies, and the DOJ to get really cheap labour. As someone interested in the public sector myself, those offerings in the co-op program are one of very few things I have liked about UVic.

Just from anecdotally observing over my 3 years at UVic, the school seems to do very well with the province in the 2L and articling recruit. Somewhat surprisingly, it has also done well with the DOJ, with about the same number of spots as UBC. This is very anecdotal, though.

As I think someone else said above, consider course availability carefully if you're really gung ho for public law. Course selection and faculty... existence... are sharply limited at UVic. There is certainly a lot of interest in environmental law here, but I would not say that there is a huge availability of actual courses in it, and upper-year registration has been a stressful and depressing time at UVic in my time here.

Also agree that Ottawa is a better city, but that sort of thing is wholly subjective and there is no point arguing about it. Individual preferences!

[knockknock]

On 4/21/2023 at 2:31 PM, Mal said:

You should keep a more open mind on what your career path will be. Environmental law is fairly niche, as is government generally, landing both would not be common. 

To clarify I wasn't looking to specifically get into environmental + public sector law, in an ideal scenario I would like to get into public sector law because I had a great experience working in government for co-op. I know environmental is niche I just mentioned it because both UVic and UOttawa say they have great environmental law programs.