I am a personality hire! bad grades + likeable = big law secured (?)

[throwawaysorry]

Since some folks will be prepping for the upcoming 2L recruit, I thought I’d share my experience as someone who just went through the process and will start their big law summer job next week. PS I am not trying to show off in any way and I acknowledge that this process is not the fairest system (systemic barriers, competitive, biases, etc) and I may be an outlier but I just wanted to share my experience since I remember going through this forum as a 1L and seeing MANY posts of people saying that if you had a C in 1L you were essentially DOOMED (and many many many similar statements).

 

About me:

- Undergrad: failed two courses, academic probation in first year but managed to graduate cum laude because of my gpa boost in my last two years (thanks covid)

- Law school: had a D and a C in 1L but did pretty well in my other classes and attend the lowest ranked/bottom tier law school

- Research experience: none

- Work experience: nothing special

- Extracurriculars: once again, nothing special but tried to be as involved as I could

- Those sweet nepo baby connections: none

- Pretty privilege: none

 

I knew the odds were against me so I spent the entire summer networking with as many people as I could. I went to all the open houses, resume workshops, coffee chats, EVERYTHING. I think I’m pretty likeable, I tend to hit it off with people right away and people naturally gravitate towards me. I tried to use that to my advantage as much as possible. I surprisingly receiving OCIs and was my charming/quirky self (use that interest section!!!!!) and ended up getting in-firms and an offer to every single firm that OCI’d with me. At one point during an in-firm, a partner stopped following the standardized questions they were supposed to follow (a system to allow the process to remain fair) and said “I’m gonna stop using this cause I’m really enjoying my conversation with you”. Being likeable, having a fun personality, being able to form authentic bonds/relationships can go a very long way. If you just finished up 1L and even 2L (articling recruit) and not feeling to great about your odds, don’t count yourself out. 

[GGrievous]

21 minutes ago, throwawaysorry said:

attend the lowest ranked/bottom tier law school

which one is this? let's finally get a definitive answer

[QueensDenning]

I don't know how helpful this is, because being extremely likeable isn't exactly learnable. It's much easier to get decent grades in law school. The vast majority of students with Ds/Cs in 1L won't be able to compensate with their glowing personality. 

[chaboywb]

7 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

I don't know how helpful this is, because being extremely likeable isn't exactly learnable. It's much easier to get decent grades in law school. The vast majority of students with Ds/Cs in 1L won't be able to compensate with their glowing personality. 

Just be more likable, it's not that hard bro.

Honestly, I think the OP makes an okay point, even if it's not exactly a lesson. Perhaps just a reminder that grades aren't absolutely everything. I was in a similar boat, where my grades were average and I didn't get a ton of OCIs, but I converted nearly every OCI into multiple in-firms and offers. It's still a multi-step process - excellent interviewing won't always overcome completely dreadful grades, and vice versa - but the process does give room for people to shine through their personality.

Still super curious to hear what this lowest-ranked law school is, though.

[CleanHands]

BigLaw firms hire loads of thoroughly mediocre candidates that they personally like.

This isn't news to anyone but BigLaw summer/articling students and junior associates who like to maintain the myth that only elite legal minds can get where they are, and law students and applicants who are inexperienced and naïve enough to believe them.

Edited May 1, 2023 by CleanHands

[PzabbytheLawyer]

Lots of people end of lots of places.

But let's not ignore merit doesn't exist in the profession. It's just not perfectly meritful.

[Mountebank]

Being likeable is at least as meritorious as getting A's. As I get further along in my career, basically all the referrals/consideration/ocassional job offers I get have nothing to do with my competence (thank heavens). If people like dealing with you, they want to help you and they want you around.

For the recruits, though, getting good grades is probably the most accessible way to get your foot in the door in the first place. But, outside the recruits, if you're affable, helpful, and respectful, you're pretty much guaranteed to do well in the profession if you want to.

[GGrievous]

9 minutes ago, Mountebank said:

affable, helpful, and respectful

are these really the qualities we're talking about here that would make an employer stop "following the standardized questions they were supposed to follow (a system to allow the process to remain fair)" to just have a conversation with this riveting creature?

[Mal]

53 minutes ago, Mountebank said:

Being likeable is at least as meritorious as getting A's. As I get further along in my career, basically all the referrals/consideration/ocassional job offers I get have nothing to do with my competence (thank heavens). If people like dealing with you, they want to help you and they want you around.

For the recruits, though, getting good grades is probably the most accessible way to get your foot in the door in the first place. But, outside the recruits, if you're affable, helpful, and respectful, you're pretty much guaranteed to do well in the profession if you want to.

I agree with this, and it is coming from someone who is very strong at analysis but struggles with people skills.

Law is a service first and foremost, you need to be able to manage relationships with a broad range of people who are often in stressful situations. Assuming competent counsel, very few cases are decided on reasoning.  

For people like me though, there are niches that are different! Personally, I write tax legislation which aligns far better with my skillset. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Mal

[Mountebank]

1 hour ago, Barry said:

are these really the qualities we're talking about here that would make an employer stop "following the standardized questions they were supposed to follow (a system to allow the process to remain fair)" to just have a conversation with this riveting creature?

Dunno. After you become a lawyer, there aren't standardized questions and "interviews" take the form of lunches with colleagues where you spend most of your time talking about other things.

Note, I'm talking private practice here.

[Case]

Most of the students reading this with average (or worse) profiles probably DO NOT have the magnetic personality of OP. 

But that's okay. You can still take some important information from OP, I think. The nugget in there is that it is all about the total package and grades aren't the be-all and end-all. Now in OP's case the "total package" happens to involve presumably looking, sounding, and smelling like Matthew McConaughey, and none of you other kids will be as sexy as OP, but you can still think - "what part of me does smell really good?" and then do your best to expose that thing in the process. 

And then past the grueling multi-year dance of interviews, once you are into your career, mountebank is right that the importance of raw intelligence fades into the background (unless perhaps you do niche/specialist practice or endeavor to perform at the top of the pile). Once you are just a humble member of the BAR your personality, common-sense, grit, etc. begin to matter more than your brain cell count (to a point). Of course, aggressively stupid lawyers also tend to be very unlikeable...  

[Wraith]

2 hours ago, Mal said:

Law is a service first and foremost, you need to be able to manage relationships with a broad range of people who are often in stressful situations.

This was also my experience working/volunteer at a small law office as a law clerk for many years. A lot of it is just managing relationships and people in stress and it is minimally about law. A lot of it is also about running your business which also distracts from the strictly practicing law part. But this is what motivated me to switch to law. I didn't want to do a PhD learning abstract concepts about the universe but realized I was more suited to study and manage people and their problems.

Even if you're not good with the law part, as long as you're good with people I think you can do okay. But that may also be true almost everywhere.

[capitalttruth]

I had A's, tons of work experience (mature student), and made it to third-round interviews for at least half of my OCIs.Got nothing; and I'm searching for an articling position without any current prospects. Sometimes you're just not cut out for a certain firm, or area. I'd like to think that perhaps I didn't have enough personality, but sometimes it's a matter of fit, and certain relationships just won't work. For a while I was pretty demoralized, but I soon realized there isn't a lot of rhyme or reason to law student hiring. I guess I just didn't make the right impression, which I can live with.

Edited May 11, 2023 by capitalttruth

[PzabbytheLawyer]

7 hours ago, capitalttruth said:

I had A's, tons of work experience (mature student), and made it to third-round interviews for at least half of my OCIs.Got nothing; and I'm searching for an articling position without any current prospects. Sometimes you're just not cut out for a certain firm, or area. I'd like to think that perhaps I didn't have enough personality, but sometimes it's a matter of fit, and certain relationships just won't work. For a while I was pretty demoralized, but I soon realized there isn't a lot of rhyme or reason to law student hiring. I guess I just didn't make the right impression, which I can live with.

That's 100 percent it.

I'll also say that once you're a 2-5 year call, a lot of these firms will be options for you. They may even call you, have their recruiters call you, and even wine and dine you.

I'm not saying no, it could be great for your long term goals. But I'm saying ask the right questions when/if this happens, and have a good understanding of what kind of 30 year life (beyond your career) you'd like to have.

Edited May 11, 2023 by PzabbytheLawyer

[GGrievous]

It’s a good thing I’m not interested in this area. I hate hockey, golf, not good looking, no connections, and have an odd personality. Not sure straight A’s and hard work would ever be of any value. 

[CleanHands]

39 minutes ago, Barry said:

It’s a good thing I’m not interested in this area. I hate hockey, golf, not good looking, no connections, and have an odd personality. Not sure straight A’s and hard work would ever be of any value. 

I hope you didn't lose interest in crim because you'd fit in just fine.