Law Firm Reputations

[sarcasticlemon]

I'm not sure if name-dropping firms are allowed, so Mods please feel free to delete if not. 

I have no family in law, so I'm not really up to date with what the reputations of firms in Toronto and Ottawa (or other cities) are like. 

Could people comment some notable ones? I only know the Davies controversy and the reputation that went with it from a few years back. 

[ccq35]

The "FAQ on "Bay St Firms"" thread here might be a good place to start: 

 

[QueensDenning]

25 minutes ago, sarcasticlemon said:

I'm not sure if name-dropping firms are allowed

Encouraged! 

[LMP]

Resources above is good for Toronto Biglaw. If you have questions about non-biglaw firms you can certianly ask them, but "reputation" is kind of hard to quantify. But you can certianly name drop any firm you like and ask for antecdotes, experiences or general musings. 

[CleanHands]

I will say that a few years back I thought that Dentons-bashing was just a @BlockedQuebecois punchline, but I've since heard universally very negative things about that firm, from many different people speaking independently, about offices in different cities, at this point.

[Generic]

From what I can gather, Wildeboer Dellelce LLP is generally considered a top-notch firm by users on this thread.

Also, this is from Reuters and is a decent starting point that somewhat helped me navigate recruit:

[LMP]

13 minutes ago, Generic said:

From what I can gather, Wildeboer Dellelce LLP is generally considered a top-notch firm by users on this thread.

Also, this is from Reuters and is a decent starting point that somewhat helped me navigate recruit:

Oh god people are falling for the WD meme. Our memes were too good. 

[PzabbytheLawyer]

39 minutes ago, LMP said:

Oh god people are falling for the WD meme. Our memes were too good. 

Why does WD have a not so great reputation?

[123]

29 minutes ago, PzabbytheLawyer said:

Why does WD have a not so great reputation?

It's fine. It just became a meme, and people are conflating internet humour with an actual endorsement.

I wonder if they credited their SEO or whatever when law students started googling them.

Edited May 26, 2023 by realpseudonym

[CleanHands]

43 minutes ago, PzabbytheLawyer said:

Why does WD have a not so great reputation?

 

14 minutes ago, realpseudonym said:

It's fine. It just became a meme, and people are conflating internet humour with an actual endorsement.

I wonder if they credited their SEO or whatever when law students started googling them.

To clarify, this is the post that started the meme: 

Despite denying being affiliated with the firm, the same poster had posted about going through the interview process with them in the weeks prior to that post:

 

It became a joke not because it's a bad firm but because it's, as far as anyone can tell, a totally average, decent and unremarkable firm but this dude was bigging them up and looking for affirmation so the joke is to treat working there like an SCC clerkship or something.

 

[PzabbytheLawyer]

Got it. Thanks!

[helloall]

https://chambers.com/legal-rankings/corporate-commercial-the-elite-ontario-20:2667:12885:1

[Whist]

6 hours ago, CleanHands said:

I will say that a few years back I thought that Dentons-bashing was just a @BlockedQuebecois punchline, but I've since heard universally very negative things about that firm, from many different people speaking independently, about offices in different cities, at this point.

I do not and will never work at Dentons. I've met people who work(ed) there that were nice. But through the grapevine of admin assistants, paralegals, etc, I've also heard it's not a great place to work.

[Lui]

6 hours ago, CleanHands said:

I will say that a few years back I thought that Dentons-bashing was just a @BlockedQuebecois punchline, but I've since heard universally very negative things about that firm, from many different people speaking independently, about offices in different cities, at this point.

 

7 minutes ago, Whist said:

I do not and will never work at Dentons. I've met people who work(ed) there that were nice. But through the grapevine of admin assistants, paralegals, etc, I've also heard it's not a great place to work.

Could you please provide more specific reasons (to the extent you're comfortable sharing)? What is it about working at Dentons that people dislike so much? I was considering applying to Dentons, but now I'm uncertain.

[CleanHands]

15 minutes ago, Lui said:

Could you please provide more specific reasons (to the extent you're comfortable sharing)? What is it about working at Dentons that people dislike so much? I was considering applying to Dentons, but now I'm uncertain.

Fuck it...

I have heard numerous stories about workplace harassment and bullying of various forms (from senior staff, directed at junior staff) from different individuals, often with elements of misogyny, homophobia, etc, involved. Toxic culture. People who stand up for themselves and complain being forced out and bought off in exchange for signing NDAs.

I must stress that I have no firsthand experience of, or involvement with, any of this. It's just been an eerily consistent theme from various sources who told me pretty much the same stories without knowing one another.

My only reason for being cagey was that I didn't want my sources fingered but I realized this doesn't narrow it down. lol

Edited May 27, 2023 by CleanHands

[JurisPrudent]

45 minutes ago, Lui said:

 

Could you please provide more specific reasons (to the extent you're comfortable sharing)? What is it about working at Dentons that people dislike so much? I was considering applying to Dentons, but now I'm uncertain.

I don’t have anything particularly good or bad to say about Dentons, but, if Dentons does the type of work you think you will be interested in doing, you should absolutely not self-select out of applying solely because of what you’ve read on anonymous internet boards (Cleanhands - I’m not calling into question what you’ve noted above specifically, just generally noting that it’s probably not a great idea to make a potentially major life decision based on information on this board alone). 
 

What’s the harm in applying? If you don’t get an interview, then fine. And if you do get an interview, you should do some real research (talking to current Dentons’ students, etc.) and then base any decisions you make based off that and any additional info you gain throughout the interview process. 
 

If you don’t apply, and you otherwise strike out on interviews, how will you look back on your decision not to throw in an application simply because of what was written on an internet board?

Edited May 27, 2023 by JurisPrudent

[GoatDuck]

Wait why is Davies nowhere in the lists? I’ve only heard they offer the best pay for first year associates (aside from NYC satellites in Toronto) but they also work you the hardest. Anything else I’m missing?

[Lui]

18 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

Fuck it...

I have heard numerous stories about workplace harassment and bullying of various forms (from senior staff, directed at junior staff) from different individuals, often with elements of misogyny, homophobia, etc, involved. Toxic culture. People who stand up for themselves and complain being forced out and bought off in exchange for signing NDAs.

I must stress that I have no firsthand experience of, or involvement with, any of this. It's just been an eerily consistent theme from various sources who told me pretty much the same stories without knowing one another.

My only reason for being cagey was that I didn't want my sources fingered but I realized this doesn't narrow it down. lol

I appreciate you sharing your knowledge regarding these issues at Dentons. It sounds absolutely horrible, and I'm definitely crossing Dentons off my OCI application list... do you know if there are any other firms that I should be cautious about? 

[Rashabon]

Go in with open eyes to the "international"/Swiss verein firms. They are poorly coordinated amongst their various offices so you get all the drawbacks of a too big firm and few benefits. Norton Rose Toronto and Norton Rose Calgary have zero real coordination and they constantly fuck each other over as a result. That kind of stuff happens more frequently at the Canadian outposts that joined up (NRF, Dentons, etc.) because there is limited organic connection or coordination there.

[Jaggers]

I actually know a bunch of people working at both Norton Rose and Dentons, and I'm not sure they're any different from any other Toronto firm. How good your life is depends on which department you work in and which partners you work with. Maybe there is slightly more pressure on hours, but I doubt that differs from one of the other biggest Toronto firms.

[Lui]

2 minutes ago, JurisPrudent said:

I don’t have anything particularly good or bad to say about Dentons, but, if Dentons does the type of work you think you will be interested in doing, you should absolutely not self-select out of applying solely because of what you’ve read on anonymous internet boards (Cleanhands - I’m not calling into question what you’ve noted above specifically, just generally noting that it’s probably not a great idea to make a potentially major life decision based on information on this board alone). 
 

What’s the harm in applying? If you don’t get an interview, then fine. And if you do get an interview, you should do some real research (talking to current Dentons’ students, etc.) and then base any decisions you make based off that and any additional info you gain throughout the interview process. 
 

What’s the harm in applying? If you don’t, and you otherwise strike out on interviews, how will you look back on your decision not to throw in an application simply because of what was written on an internet board?

You're absolutely right that there is no harm in applying anyway. But I guess I was only considering applying to Dentons because, based on my very limited knowledge about big firms, Dentons is one of the largest firms in the world and has a practice group that I'm interested in. At this point, I'm hesitant to take chances with a firm that has a reputation for toxic cultures and mistreatment in workplaces. 

[JurisPrudent]

1 minute ago, Lui said:

You're absolutely right that there is no harm in applying anyway. But I guess I was only considering applying to Dentons because, based on my very limited knowledge about big firms, Dentons is one of the largest firms in the world and has a practice group that I'm interested in. At this point, I'm hesitant to take chances with a firm that has a reputation for toxic cultures and mistreatment in workplaces. 

To be clear, by “reputation” in this instance, you mean a couple of posters on this board have either said or heard negative things about the firm? 

Don’t you think it’d be worthwhile to maybe test that “reputation” by speaking to real live people who you know have experienced working at Dentons?

Again, I have no reason to think any posters are lying and I don’t know anything about the culture at Dentons but, to write a firm off simply because of what’s been written on this board, without taking further steps to verify, seems ludicrous to me. Don’t you owe your future self more than that?

[Lui]

8 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

Go in with open eyes to the "international"/Swiss verein firms. They are poorly coordinated amongst their various offices so you get all the drawbacks of a too big firm and few benefits. Norton Rose Toronto and Norton Rose Calgary have zero real coordination and they constantly fuck each other over as a result. That kind of stuff happens more frequently at the Canadian outposts that joined up (NRF, Dentons, etc.) because there is limited organic connection or coordination there.

Thank you for sharing your insights. I'll definitely keep this information in mind as I navigate my options and consider other firms.

[Lui]

2 minutes ago, JurisPrudent said:

To be clear, by “reputation” in this instance, you mean a couple of posters on this board have either said or heard negative things about the firm? 

Don’t you think it’d be worthwhile to maybe test that “reputation” by speaking to real live people who you know have experienced working at Dentons?

Again, I have no reason to think any posters are lying and I don’t know anything about the culture at Dentons but, to write a firm off simply because of what’s been written on this board, without taking further steps to verify, seems ludicrous to me. Don’t you owe your future self more than that?

Right, I recognize that I may have misused the word "reputation" based on unverified information. I appreciate your advice that I should take further steps to verify. As Jaggers said, experiences may vary from department to department, and I think I'll try reaching out to lawyers working in the practice group that I'm interested in.

[TheMidnightOil]

I've heard that Hegdis & Company makes their articling students sit on the floor.