UWindsor Single JD vs. Dual JD

[OnionRingEnthusiast123]

Hi All,

I am thankful to have been accepted into both the single and dual jd programs at the University of Windsor. I have provisionally accepted the Dual Program. Let's set aside the discussion of cost for a second, although that is quite the important factor. Which program is more worth it to pursue? Which one would prep me the best for working in the legal field? Which one has a higher quality of education? What are the pros and cons of each program?

Of course, I will be doing my own research, but any and all advice would be greatly appreciated!

[Debtful]

Do you intend to practice in the US?

[OnionRingEnthusiast123]

I am open to the possibility. In fact, I would very much like to practice law or take jobs internationally. In states or beyond.

[LMP]

Detroit Mercy is not looked upon with favour in the US. If you have a burning passion to immediately work at a small practice in Detroit, then I guess it may be worthwhile. But otherwise you'd be better off just doing the single degree and writing the bar in one of the US states that allows it. In fact, given how much American employers like school pedigree, you might be better off not having the DM degree at all, depending on your career goals.

As for quality of education and preparing for practice, I'd say those are irrelevant. Pick whatever accredited school you like and your experince will be more or less the same. It is what you choose to do in law school that will shape your ability to practice after. Summer job and clinics are probably the two best ways to be prepared.

[CleanHands]

1 hour ago, OnionRingEnthusiast123 said:

In fact, I would very much like to practice law or take jobs internationally. In states or beyond.

You and 90% of 0Ls. Slow down there.

[Whisk3yjack]

I am a graduate of the single JD and so I may have some personal bias here, but I feel that I can not let you make this decision without saying this.

You should absolutely choose the single program. The Dual is a worse program. You have to spend more than half your time taking classes at UDM, a legitimately bad law school, as opposed to Windsor, an OK law school. Is the Single JD at Windsor the premier law school in Canada? Absolutely not. But the requirements to get into the Dual are much lower and that comes through in the academic output of the students. When you are in classes, there is a noticeable gap between between the students in the Dual and the Single. 

Someone who was in the Dual is going to come on this thread and talk about how its not all that bad and you get two law degrees and there are smart people in the program and that is all technically true. But don't let them fool you. Choosing the Dual program when you have the opportunity to get in the Single would be a terrible decision. Unless you are dead set on practicing law in Detroit, there is no reason for you to choose the Dual program. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Whisk3yjack

[CleanHands]

15 minutes ago, Whisk3yjack said:

When you are in classes, there is a noticeable gap between between the students in the Dual and the Single. 

Frankly, even in terms of contributions on this forum there is a noticeable gap between what Windsor Single and Dual students/grads are able to produce. lol

[Catlawyer]

On 6/13/2023 at 2:32 PM, Whisk3yjack said:

But the requirements to get into the Dual are much lower and that comes through in the academic output of the students. When you are in classes, there is a noticeable gap between between the students in the Dual and the Single. 

@Whisk3yjack

Ironic, as the Duals make this observation about the Singles, and not in the Single's favour.

@OnionRingEnthusiast123 since you got an opinion from a Single JD graduate, I'll provide one from the Dual JD graduate perspective and acknowledging both pros and cons.

- Significantly more program opportunities: your options for participating in mooting competitions, clinics, extracurricular opportunities is x2. In fact, in some UDM clinics you are given the opportunity to appear on the record in front of a judge in your first year. I was apart of numerous academic and extra-curricular committees while at Windsor, and you want to know the biggest complaint that consistently comes from the Single JD students? That they are not offered as many opportunities as the Dual JDs.

- "Academic Output": This made me laugh. Yes, while the Dual JD entrance requirements are lower, the employment stats indicate that this does not affect the Duals in a negative way.  We are just as competitive and successful in securing Big Law and Government positions (MAG, PPSC). Don't believe me? Search up this year's graduating class and look where they will be articling (Blakes, Osler, MAG, and other reputable firms/positions on both sides on the border). The Dual JD program does not hold as much of a "stigma" as some people pretend there is, and Canadian employers do not look down on it as much anymore.

Asides from your first year, you are in the same exact classes as the Singles and you receive the same quality of education as the Singles. Even for the 1L separate classes, the Canadian portion is often taught by the same professor teaching the Single JD students.  It's not a "worse program" as you are getting the same education as the Single students. The only difference is that on top of the Windsor education you are taking additional classes at UDM. The quality of those classes?  Truthfully, depends on the professor but the same could be said about Windsor Law. While UDM is not ranked high, the education is not abysmal, and you will be fine practicing in the U.S.

Remember this: there are differences in the academic structure between the two schools that are also a factor in the Dual JD's education. At UWindsor, most exams are open book vs. at UDM, most are closed book. While this pushes you to learn two studying and test-taking habits, it's beneficial in allowing you to really comprehend the material by having a comparative education. 

Work hard and your efforts will be recognized, no matter if it's a Dual or Single JD.

- Wider Networking Base: Another bonus of cross-border education is your ability to network is x2. UDM loves to invite Michigan Supreme Court judges often for lectures/events and has a large network of alumni at big Detroit/Michigan firms (Miller Canfield, Warner Norcross, Collin Einhorn, etc.) that are supportive of the school and students.

Furthermore, the Duals often are more supportive of one another, know each other better, and make more friends than the Singles because of aspects such as commuting and it being a smaller program.

Practicing in the U.S. and UDM: It's obviously not a top school, and none of the Duals pretend it is. However, the assertion by some that all U.S. employers will look down upon it and that "you might be better off not having the DM degree at all" is far-fetched. As mentioned, Dual JD students place at good firms in many big cities (Chicago, Detroit, New York), not just small Detroit firms. Study hard, participate in extra-curriculars, utilize the networking opportunities offered, build your resume, and you'll end up going in the direction you want to go.

UDM provides more support to students. Want to speak to the UDM Dean about something? She'll personally reply and invite you to her office.  Want to speak to the UWindsor Dean? Next to impossible.

Cost: This is a big factor that you should consider. If you do not see yourself potentially practicing in the U.S., do not attend the Dual JD program. Not because it's a "worse program", but because it financially does not make sense. The Dual JD is huge financial burden to take on.

Other things to note: The Dual JD program is not without its flaws. The staff in charge of administrating the program at both schools sometimes drop the ball (ex. forgetting to extend student visas in time causing delays at the border). This is just the unfortunate reality of two schools communicating with one another and some disorganization in faculty at both ends.

Overall, I would say cost and whether you see yourself ever practicing in the U.S. should be your main factors to consider. If you are okay with the financial implications and want to have a route to the U.S., pick the Dual JD program. If not, pick the Single JD. But don't be under the false impression that the Dual JD is a horrible program with nothing to offer.

[CleanHands]

1 minute ago, Catlawyer said:

We are just as competitive and successful in securing Big Law and Government positions (MAG, PPSC). Don't believe me? Search up this year's graduating class and look where they will be articling (Blakes, Osler, MAG, and other reputable firms/positions on both sides on the border).

Nobody in this thread wrote that dual students have worse outcomes than single students.

2 minutes ago, Catlawyer said:

The Dual JD program does not hold as much of a "stigma" as some people pretend there is, and Canadian employers do not look down on it as much anymore.

Nobody in this thread said anything about stigma attaching to the dual program in the eyes of Canadian employers.

3 minutes ago, Catlawyer said:

Asides from your first year, you are in the same exact classes as the Singles and you receive the same quality of education as the Singles. Even for the 1L separate classes, the Canadian portion is often taught by the same professor teaching the Single JD students.  It's not a "worse program" as you are getting the same education as the Single students. 

And the dual students pay way more for that same quality of education, just to also obtain an American degree that is useless to those who end up working in Canada and far from ideal for those who end up working in the US. That's what people were focusing on.

[Catlawyer]

5 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

Nobody in this thread wrote that dual students have worse outcomes than single students.

Nobody in this thread said anything about stigma attaching to the dual program in the eyes of Canadian employers.

And the dual students pay way more for that same quality of education, just to also obtain an American degree that is useless to those who end up working in Canada and far from ideal for those who end up working in the US. That's what people were focusing on.

 It was said that duals have worse academic outputs. The employment outcomes don't support that notion.

 I did not say someone in the thread said there was a stigma. It was a reference to a general assumption amongst some.

That is exactly why I said at the end of my post that unless the original poster needs a route to practice in the U.S., they should not pursue the Dual J.D.

[Whisk3yjack]

12 hours ago, Catlawyer said:

It's not a "worse program" as you are getting the same education as the Single students. The only difference is that on top of the Windsor education you are taking additional classes at UDM.

It is not true that you are getting the same education as the Single students. We can leave aside arguments as to whether the Single or Dual is a "worse program" but it is not correct to say that the only difference is that you are just "taking additional classes at UDM". I believe that the Duals do end up taking a few more classes in total over their three years. However, the difference between the programs is that you are substituting classes that you would have taken at the University of Windsor for classes that you take at the University of Detroit Mercy. You are, in a very real sense, getting a different education. 

Unless you are fairly certain that you want to practice in the US, I do not think that the differences between the program (for better and for worse) make the large difference in costs worth it

[Bob Jones]

On 6/13/2023 at 10:18 AM, OnionRingEnthusiast123 said:

Hi All,

I am thankful to have been accepted into both the single and dual jd programs at the University of Windsor. I have provisionally accepted the Dual Program. Let's set aside the discussion of cost for a second, although that is quite the important factor. Which program is more worth it to pursue? Which one would prep me the best for working in the legal field? Which one has a higher quality of education? What are the pros and cons of each program?

Of course, I will be doing my own research, but any and all advice would be greatly appreciated!

Single JD. I graduated Dual. The vast majority of my classmates are practising in Ont, although some did write a US Bar but aren’t practising in the US. If your ambition is US, I would try to aim for better US schools. Dual unfortunately doesn’t provide much of a leg up, and you’re creating a handicap against yourself to try to do well in a regular JD program by having all the additional work to stress about too. A lot of the Canadian material in 2L and 3L is quite rushed, with a bigger emphasis on US work. 
 

If you get into single JD Windsor I would try that route.