Law Jobs with Actual Work-Life Balance?

[LawFirmDude]

Hi everyone.

To put it short, I am articling at a huge bay st firm and I already know it's not for me. I would like to find a job, regardless of pay (relatively) that would see me working a maximum of 9-5 M-F and leaving my work behind. If that means working at a university, government, in-house lit counsel for a tech company, small lit boutique in a town far from Toronto, I'd love to get some insight. 

Bonus if the work is rewarding too (not a fan of business/corporate law).

Thanks everyone!

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by LawFirmDude

[GoatDuck]

I’m curious. What you’re asking for is perfectly understandable and legitimate, but somewhat odd given that, at least on this forum, people remind incoming law students over and over that law isn’t a 9-5 profession where you close your laptop and don’t think about work on the weekend. Did you not know about this, or did you know but thought you wouldn’t mind the hours?

[Conge]

I think this is probably a low effort troll, but, if not, then serious answer is that those jobs do exist outside of private practice. 

[LawFirmDude]

22 minutes ago, GoatDuck said:

I’m curious. What you’re asking for is perfectly understandable and legitimate, but somewhat odd given that, at least on this forum, people remind incoming law students over and over that law isn’t a 9-5 profession where you close your laptop and don’t think about work on the weekend. Did you not know about this, or did you know but thought you wouldn’t mind the hours?

I'll say that I was vaguely aware of this going into law school. However, during covid law school just seemed like the best option for me and 3 more years of school sounded fun. Perhaps a bit short sighted, but I also changed a lot as a person in those 3 years, valuing my personal time a great deal more (perhaps as a symptom of the pandemic). Now I'm sure that the niche I'm looking for exists, but just want some opinions or examples if people know of some already.

3 minutes ago, Conge said:

I think this is probably a low effort troll, but, if not, then serious answer is that those jobs do exist outside of private practice. 

Not a troll, promise. Just someone who never realized the gravity of the work life balance horrors of private practice and now has it laid bare before be in this big firm environment. Curious what jobs/industries outside private practice you'd recommend? Thanks.

[Misfit]

That’s my job atm, in-house. if I was billing my time, it probably works out to 4 hours a day or less. I’m much happier than I was at my Bay St firm. 

[LawFirmDude]

1 hour ago, Misfit said:

That’s my job atm, in-house. if I was billing my time, it probably works out to 4 hours a day or less. I’m much happier than I was at my Bay St firm. 

Could I ask you what industry or type of in-house job you ended up finding? Lit/corporate? How you found it? And inside or outside Toronto/the GTA?

Hope you can answer without doxxing yourself, happy to take this to PMs if you're willing. That sounds like my dream lol so any info is much appreciated to bring me hope (yes I'm being dramatic).

[Conge]

1 hour ago, LawFirmDude said:

I'll say that I was vaguely aware of this going into law school. However, during covid law school just seemed like the best option for me and 3 more years of school sounded fun. Perhaps a bit short sighted, but I also changed a lot as a person in those 3 years, valuing my personal time a great deal more (perhaps as a symptom of the pandemic). Now I'm sure that the niche I'm looking for exists, but just want some opinions or examples if people know of some already.

Not a troll, promise. Just someone who never realized the gravity of the work life balance horrors of private practice and now has it laid bare before be in this big firm environment. Curious what jobs/industries outside private practice you'd recommend? Thanks.

I apologize. I should not have assumed you were trolling.

Government and corporate in-house jobs are generally 9 to 5 (ish). However, I don't think any high paying job with any real degree of responsibility is truly 9 to 5. For example, I work 7:30am/8am until shortly after 5pm. I have a hard cut off at 5 because I need to get a child from day care. I will always answer my phone after 5 and I generally check my emails after kiddo goes to bed to catch up on what might have happened between 5pm and bedtime that I need to know for tomorrow. If I need to travel for work, or work on weekend because I'm in charge of an acquisition or there is an emergency, then I do that too. But that's not just the lawyers, lots of business folks work like that too, or more. 

There are more in-house positions for corporate/commercial lawyers, but they exist for litigators too, especially those with labour and employment backgrounds (in my experience, anyways). 

My advice is to work at your firm for 3-5 years (or at least stay in private practice that long). You'll have a much, much better sense of what kind of in-house role you want, and what kind of roles are out there (because you'll interact with them). You'll also you'll have some relevant experience that will make you an attractive candidate. 

 

[Misfit]

56 minutes ago, LawFirmDude said:

Could I ask you what industry or type of in-house job you ended up finding? Lit/corporate? How you found it? And inside or outside Toronto/the GTA?

Hope you can answer without doxxing yourself, happy to take this to PMs if you're willing. That sounds like my dream lol so any info is much appreciated to bring me hope (yes I'm being dramatic).

I work as a corporate generalist for a medium sized energy company in the GTA. I review commercial agreements, IP, employment matters, M&A for small deals.. basically any legal issue the company has will cross my desk. I prefer it over being a specialist/subject matter expert, and from what I understand, being a generalist allows you to change industries a little more easily. 
 

I got my position through a recruiter in my 2nd year. This was during the hiring boom, my recruiter contact says the market is a slower as companies were wary about a possible recession, but it’s expected to pick up soon.  
 

I went to law school knowing I’d like to work in-house eventually. I’ve seen colleagues jump back to private practice relatively easily, so those doors aren’t necessarily closed to you if you end up hating it/want to broaden your horizons.

[Bachtowork]

I am articling in a small city and so far, only work 7 hours a day (not including my hour-long lunch break). I suspect it won't change much, as I notice the lawyers all leave at 4:30pm as well (right now, hours are 8:30-4:30pm; they will revert to 9-5pm in September). My articling principal is phenomenal and told me to just work when I am at the office and then do the things I love (playing musical instruments, singing, reading, etc.) when I go back home. My pay is also pretty good. All this makes me think that small town practice is really underrated. 

[Diplock]

On 8/18/2023 at 11:20 AM, Conge said:

I apologize. I should not have assumed you were trolling.

Government and corporate in-house jobs are generally 9 to 5 (ish). However, I don't think any high paying job with any real degree of responsibility is truly 9 to 5. For example, I work 7:30am/8am until shortly after 5pm. I have a hard cut off at 5 because I need to get a child from day care. I will always answer my phone after 5 and I generally check my emails after kiddo goes to bed to catch up on what might have happened between 5pm and bedtime that I need to know for tomorrow. If I need to travel for work, or work on weekend because I'm in charge of an acquisition or there is an emergency, then I do that too. But that's not just the lawyers, lots of business folks work like that too, or more. 

There are more in-house positions for corporate/commercial lawyers, but they exist for litigators too, especially those with labour and employment backgrounds (in my experience, anyways). 

My advice is to work at your firm for 3-5 years (or at least stay in private practice that long). You'll have a much, much better sense of what kind of in-house role you want, and what kind of roles are out there (because you'll interact with them). You'll also you'll have some relevant experience that will make you an attractive candidate. 

 

I strongly agree with the first half of this and even more strongly disagree with the second half of this.

If the OP isn't trolling (and doesn't seem to be) this is a serious question. And look, I don't fault anyone for going to law school without deeply examining this question, but I do wonder how someone ends up on Bay Street and articling without getting there. I mean, whatever, better late than never. But the first and most essential advice is that you need to fucking stop sleepwalking through your major decision-making in life or else you'll end up leading someone else's life based on someone else's values without even pausing to consider what makes you happy. I mean, really really good you've started to question that. Far better now than never. But please be aware, the gravitational force of doing the expected thing is a constant pull. It'll be there your entire life. Don't stop pushing back.

So the part I agree with is this. You can find a job in law, or a job otherwise, with sane work expectations and hours that don't require you to sacrifice your quality of life. Personally, I would suggest that jobs in law afford greater opportunities for work-life integration in a healthy way rather than straight division of time as you seem to suggest. In other words, your job may not be strictly 9-5 but you if you want to leave for the gym in the middle of the day, you can have that be a part of your daily life. Also working remotely, etc. But the basic point you make is valid and it's good you asked. If you don't want your job to become the major thing your life revolves around at all times, you need to get out of Big Law and find something else to do. And you can. Folks will have reasonable suggestions. I don't want to get into that right now.

Where I disagree (massively) is this whole "punch yourself in the face for 3-5 years and at the end of that, maybe you can stop punching yourself in the face and do something else." Three to five years is a very long time. If you let your job become your life for that length of time, at the end of it even if it hasn't twisted your values to somewhere you don't want them to be, the friends you have who live by other values will have moved on. You'll have missed innumerable chances to meet a partner who agrees with your real values because you'll be living by other values entirely. And on, and on. It's an absurd thing to say "do this thing you hate so you can do something else you don't hate" if you do, in fact, have the option to do something you don't hate immediately.

Look, I value people who work at difficult jobs, sometimes long hours, to put food on the table and support their families. It isn't just in law. Farmers do it too. So do truckers. If that's your situation, and you don't have better options, there's honour in that. But if you do have better options, why the holy fuck are you punching yourself in the face again?

Figure out something you want to do other than big law, and do it. But be aware, back to the first point, that the whole reason lawyers make good money (in every role) and why it's a respected, highly educated profession is because what we do is important. Whether it's a M&A transaction with big money on the table and important to shareholders, or one guy's application for refugee status that's keeping him for getting deported back to some fucking hellhole where they want to kill him for being gay, what you are doing will always be important to someone. You can't forget that. The pressure to respond to shareholders at all hours may be greater than the outside pressure to save that guy's life from getting deported, but if you ask me the second example is still the far more urgent one, even though habits in practice don't seem to reflect that. My point is, no good lawyer hopes to work 9-5 and forget about all the important shit they're doing the rest of the day. That's like a surgeon saying "if this surgery goes late, we'll pick it up at 9am." There are limits. Learn to work within them, and you can have a great life doing this. But be realistic, also.

[LawFirmDude]

On 8/19/2023 at 12:21 PM, Diplock said:

I strongly agree with the first half of this and even more strongly disagree with the second half of this.

If the OP isn't trolling (and doesn't seem to be) this is a serious question. And look, I don't fault anyone for going to law school without deeply examining this question, but I do wonder how someone ends up on Bay Street and articling without getting there. I mean, whatever, better late than never. But the first and most essential advice is that you need to fucking stop sleepwalking through your major decision-making in life or else you'll end up leading someone else's life based on someone else's values without even pausing to consider what makes you happy. I mean, really really good you've started to question that. Far better now than never. But please be aware, the gravitational force of doing the expected thing is a constant pull. It'll be there your entire life. Don't stop pushing back.

So the part I agree with is this. You can find a job in law, or a job otherwise, with sane work expectations and hours that don't require you to sacrifice your quality of life. Personally, I would suggest that jobs in law afford greater opportunities for work-life integration in a healthy way rather than straight division of time as you seem to suggest. In other words, your job may not be strictly 9-5 but you if you want to leave for the gym in the middle of the day, you can have that be a part of your daily life. Also working remotely, etc. But the basic point you make is valid and it's good you asked. If you don't want your job to become the major thing your life revolves around at all times, you need to get out of Big Law and find something else to do. And you can. Folks will have reasonable suggestions. I don't want to get into that right now.

Where I disagree (massively) is this whole "punch yourself in the face for 3-5 years and at the end of that, maybe you can stop punching yourself in the face and do something else." Three to five years is a very long time. If you let your job become your life for that length of time, at the end of it even if it hasn't twisted your values to somewhere you don't want them to be, the friends you have who live by other values will have moved on. You'll have missed innumerable chances to meet a partner who agrees with your real values because you'll be living by other values entirely. And on, and on. It's an absurd thing to say "do this thing you hate so you can do something else you don't hate" if you do, in fact, have the option to do something you don't hate immediately.

Look, I value people who work at difficult jobs, sometimes long hours, to put food on the table and support their families. It isn't just in law. Farmers do it too. So do truckers. If that's your situation, and you don't have better options, there's honour in that. But if you do have better options, why the holy fuck are you punching yourself in the face again?

Figure out something you want to do other than big law, and do it. But be aware, back to the first point, that the whole reason lawyers make good money (in every role) and why it's a respected, highly educated profession is because what we do is important. Whether it's a M&A transaction with big money on the table and important to shareholders, or one guy's application for refugee status that's keeping him for getting deported back to some fucking hellhole where they want to kill him for being gay, what you are doing will always be important to someone. You can't forget that. The pressure to respond to shareholders at all hours may be greater than the outside pressure to save that guy's life from getting deported, but if you ask me the second example is still the far more urgent one, even though habits in practice don't seem to reflect that. My point is, no good lawyer hopes to work 9-5 and forget about all the important shit they're doing the rest of the day. That's like a surgeon saying "if this surgery goes late, we'll pick it up at 9am." There are limits. Learn to work within them, and you can have a great life doing this. But be realistic, also.

Wow, this is incredible. I really appreciate you taking the time to write this out and I'm going to take it to heart. The part about sleepwalking through major decisions resonates especially. 

I did the 2L recruit because everyone else was doing it (and I went into some good debt for law school). So far, I think that was the right decision as I haven't sacrificed much at all to make that happen. However, I realize that will soon not be the case as articling demands ramp up. I'm still considering "punching myself in the face" for first year associate so as not to go shopping for shoes barefoot as they say. Undecided on that, because you're right there are "better" options available sooner... 

I'm not looking to fully separate work and life into two clean buckets, more so to know in advance whether a given night, weekend, month will hold such more extreme demands of me in my free time. And if I have to make some last minute edits or moves to help someone's life improve dramatically that is much easier to swallow than helping a big bank make a purchase or something.

I didn't work this weekend, and pretty much knew I wouldn't have to. It's not always so bad, but I really hope to internalize your words before my values change as you suggest.

Thanks again.