Opinions on Political/O&G Messaging at UofC?

[CndnViking]

Hey folks,

So, I live in Calgary and as such it seems like the obvious school to apply to, but a couple years ago I have a conversation with someone who was going there that stuck with me. 

I don't recall the exact wording he used, but he basically described the school as having a major right-wing political bias, and revolving heavily around the oil & gas industry, and said something to the effect of "if you don't want to work in oil, and aren't a conservative, you should probably just go somewhere else."

I'm curious how this compares to other people's experiences?

[Pantalaimon]

I found the law school to be generally left leaning. To ground the conversation - was your friend talking about law school?

[Renerik]

1 hour ago, CndnViking said:

basically described the school as having a major right-wing political bias

You're unlikely to find a Canadian school where students espouse right-wing cultural views without ridicule from the majority of the student body, even in Alberta. What you're likely to find (irrespective of where you attend) is people who feign an interest in left-wing principles (societal equity, minority rights, climate change) only to become capitalist boot-lickers as soon as the big law bell tolls. 

In Alberta that might look like defending an O&G company from regulatory offences. In Ontario, that might be helping Telcos merge. 

[CndnViking]

16 hours ago, Pantalaimon said:

I found the law school to be generally left leaning. To ground the conversation - was your friend talking about law school?

Yes. He was an alumni of my undergrad program and, at the time, a 2L at U of C. 

To be clear, he's not a friend, so I can't speak to his overall perceptions. I only met him a couple times at events with program alumni. That said I know he identifies as a libertarian but skews pretty right himself, so that comment struck me as even more telling than it would be normally.

Edited October 3, 2023 by CndnViking

[CndnViking]

15 hours ago, Renerik said:

You're unlikely to find a Canadian school where students espouse right-wing cultural views without ridicule from the majority of the student body, even in Alberta. 

Do you mean specifically law schools? Cause if you're including university at large, I have to disagree. In my undergrad program (Policy Studies) it seemed like the divide was maybe 60/40 in terms of what I knew of student's political leanings, and the ones who were very outspoken about it followed a pretty similar split. For the most part the worst the right-wing students ever got reasoned pushback on the validity of their arguments or maybe the odd exasperated sigh or eye roll. I only saw anything even approaching "ridicule" once, and it was well-earned with a speech that was less making a point and more espousing the speaker's arch conservative bona fides, to show what a dyed in the wool Harper stan he was.

Hell, one of my own profs had to get utterly dragged in the media a good half-dozen times before her hard right harassment of fellow faculty members finally got her terminated.

I keep hearing this idea that conservative views can't be espoused in post-secondary institutions, but that seems to be speaking about an entirely different world than the one I've been living in.

Edited October 3, 2023 by CndnViking

[Renerik]

1 hour ago, CndnViking said:

In my undergrad program (Policy Studies)

Aye, but this is canlawforum. Given the context, the presumption is that "school" without qualifiers means "law school".

[CleanHands]

2 hours ago, CndnViking said:

Do you mean specifically law schools? Cause if you're including university at large, I have to disagree.

Not sure why you keep posting threads asking questions, when you already know everything and argue with everyone who tries to help you.

[CndnViking]

17 minutes ago, Renerik said:

Aye, but this is canlawforum. Given the context, the presumption is that "school" without qualifiers means "law school".

Funny, cause no more than 5 comments prior in this same thread you'll see someone asking the same clarifying question of me, so it appears that's not a universal assumption.

Further, my point (and I apologize if I was too subtle about it) is that this is pretty much what people tell you about universities in general, and it's not true there, so it seems somewhat unlikely that it goes from "not a thing at all" to "so extreme any mention of conservative views jumps straight to mass ridicule" just by shifting from the broader university campus to the law building, and thus your comment seems to be exaggerated.

14 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

Not sure why you keep posting threads asking questions, when you already know everything and argue with everyone who tries to help you.

I dunno man, why do you keep commenting on things when it looks like all you want to do is insult and belittle people and blatantly lie about what they've said?

In fact why don't I save us both some time? From now on, when I make a comment, I'll assume you disapprove and have something condescending and shitty to say, you can assume I told you to fuck off, and neither of us needs to waste time writing it?

On a related note: this site needs a block button.

Edited October 3, 2023 by CndnViking

[Renerik]

18 hours ago, CndnViking said:

[...] obvious school to apply to [...]

In your original post, you use "school" to mean "law school" without qualifiers. From your other posts, it's obvious you're not looking to apply to an undergraduate program. You yourself used the presumption then turned around to "well AkTuAlLy" me. Pantalaimon also defaulted to "law school" first before asking their clarification point.

In other posts you've called others out for arguments in bad faith -- do better.

27 minutes ago, CndnViking said:

[...] it seems unlikely that it goes from complete bullshit at the undergrad level to mass ridicule the second you step into law programs.

I disagree. Everyone I've talked to across Canadian law (emphasis mine) schools, from students to alumni, agree that they lean left. Some more than others, but no administration or student body can be characterized as "right-wing". I arguably go to the 2nd most YEEHAW school in Canada and it's certainly not right wing. If a school like Trinity Western gets approved one day, they're likely to lean right, but they'd be an exception in the Canadian legal education landscape. 

There's definitely a difference between the law student body and the general university population. I hear some questionable things out and about on campus but that stuff gets reeled in quick in the law faculty. That may be because law students are more educated than people who go into policy studies and educated people tend to lean left, and a dozen other factors. 

[CleanHands]

18 minutes ago, Renerik said:

In your original post, you use "school" to mean "law school" without qualifiers. From your other posts, it's obvious you're not looking to apply to an undergraduate program. You yourself used the presumption then turned around to "well AkTuAlLy" me. Pantalaimon also defaulted to "law school" first before asking their clarification point.

In other posts you've called others out for arguments in bad faith -- do better.

Clearly someone in this guy's life who doesn't know anything about the legal field told him law would be a good fit because he has an argumentative personality.

Not realizing that if he becomes a litigator he'll quickly become hated by every trial judge he appears in front of and then hated by appellate judges when he files meritless misapprehension of evidence and reasonable apprehension of bias appeals because nobody else is smart enough to understand what is "actually meant" in any conversation he's involved in.

[CndnViking]

20 minutes ago, Renerik said:

In other posts you've called others out for arguments in bad faith -- do better.

Yeah, bad faith arguments like the one you're making right here.

I don't think my point was particularly hard to understand: which was "That's a common conception of universities rit large, and it doesn't pan out, so what you're claiming seems far fetched." There's nothing bad faith about that. Suppositional, sure, but I didn't even suggest that I assumed you were specifically aiming it at undergrad, but rather added a qualifier about the scope of the presumption.
 

20 minutes ago, Renerik said:

I disagree. Everyone I've talked to across Canadian law (emphasis mine) schools, from students to alumni, agree that they lean left. Some more than others, but no administration or student body can be characterized as "right-wing". I arguably go to the 2nd most YEEHAW school in Canada and it's certainly not right wing.

You wanna talk about bad faith? You didn't just say law schools "aren't right wing", you said:

18 hours ago, Renerik said:

You're unlikely to find a Canadian school where students espouse right-wing cultural views without ridicule from the majority of the student body

So sure, if you want to move the goal posts and now say you're just saying they don't qualify as right wing? Fine. Had that been your initial comment I would have shrugged and said "Cool, good to know."

But your initial comment didn't just suggest "not right" but rather "outwardly and automatically mocking of any conservative comment" - so yeah, I stand behind the my prior assessment of that sounding exaggerated.

13 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

Clearly someone in this guy's life who doesn't know anything about the legal field told him law would be a good fit because he has an argumentative personality.

Not realizing that if he becomes a litigator he'll quickly become hated by every trial judge he appears in front of and then hated by appellate judges when he files meritless misapprehension of evidence and reasonable apprehension of bias appeals because nobody else is smart enough to understand what is "actually meant" in any conversation he's involved in.

Wow, THIS guy, Captain Troll himself, wants to tell ME that I'LL be hated? Dude, with how consistently, immediately, and without provocation you talk down to everyone you encounter, I just assumed being hated was your life's dream. Yeah, it's no wonder you talk about how you're sure "the ship has sailed" on living alone. Maybe try being 5-10% less of a dick once in a while, and maybe that wouldn't be the case. In the meantime, save me your judgmental bullshit.

Remember when I said to save us both some time and just assume I'd tell you to fuck off? Well here it is: Fuck off.

Edited October 3, 2023 by CndnViking

[theycancallyouhoju]

I’m glad to see this forum has remained as pedantic in its arguments as ever since I left.

If you want to work in Calgary, going to school in Calgary is very helpful for that, and how many of your classmates will have politics you disdain shouldn’t play a role in any consideration where the longer term goal is what matters.

If you’re asking whether a large number of Calgary students go into O&G, yes. That’s because a large amount of corporate work in Alberta is O&G. But you don’t have to be a corporate lawyer if you don’t want to.

If you’re asking whether your classes will be highly conservative, no, they will largely be consistent with law classes across the country. That’s because of the nature of law school. There are some subjects that provide more political opinion weighing in, but the real focus of law school is learning the law.

If you’re asking whether you should choose a law school based on how many students will have politics that you dislike, no, that’s idiotic. You choose a law school based on what provides the best basis for obtaining the career you want where you want it. Decide that first. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by theycancallyouhoju

[BlockedQuebecois]

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but in addition to my general rule that people should probably not go to law school because they’ll probably hate the practice of law, I do really sincerely think that if you’re unable to have someone disagree with you or make a joke without flying off the handle, you probably shouldn’t go to law school. 

Especially if the person provoking you is @Renerik, who is so manifestly bad at trolling he could not even provoke a hungry alligator if he tried to tickle its tonsils. 

[CndnViking]

11 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I do really sincerely think that if you’re unable to have someone disagree with you or make a joke without flying off the handle, you probably shouldn’t go to law school. 

Let's see, how can I put this with the appropriate amount of respect, commensurate to what I've seen you show? I mean, maybe it's not a "go fuck yourself" quite yet, but at the very least a "stuff it, troll" seems warranted. When I want snarky trolls to tell me what to do with my life, I'll make sure you and @CleanHands are at the top of the list I reach out to.

28 minutes ago, theycancallyouhoju said:

If you’re asking whether you should choose a law school based on how many students will have politics that you dislike, no, that’s idiotic.

It's not, or I would have asked that.

Like I said, this was advice I got from a current student over there, that the UofC was abnormally politically slanted and narrowly focused, and I was seeking second opinions to confirm or dispute that claim. That's it.

Edited October 3, 2023 by CndnViking

[theycancallyouhoju]

6 minutes ago, CndnViking said:

It's not, or I would have asked that.

Like I said, this was advice I got from a current student over there, that the UofC was abnormally politically slanted and narrowly focused, and I was seeking second opinions to confirm or dispute that claim. That's it.

A law school isn’t narrowly focused because it can’t be. Which you presumably know if you’ve been looking into law schools. They all teach the same first year core courses. They all have a mostly overlapping set of upper year courses. They all have a few unique offerings.

The political slant of a student body doesn’t matter to you at all for the reasons outlined above.

Honestly the person you spoke to just sounds very immature and, separately, it’s not at all clear what you’re actually concerned about in practical terms. 

[Renerik]

22 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I do really sincerely think that if you’re unable to have someone disagree with you or make a joke without flying off the handle, you probably shouldn’t go to law school. 

I'm drafting a reddit post as we speak.

[CndnViking]

14 minutes ago, theycancallyouhoju said:

A law school isn’t narrowly focused because it can’t be. Which you presumably know if you’ve been looking into law schools. They all teach the same first year core courses. They all have a mostly overlapping set of upper year courses. They all have a few unique offerings.

The political slant of a student body doesn’t matter to you at all for the reasons outlined above.

Honestly the person you spoke to just sounds very immature and, separately, it’s not at all clear what you’re actually concerned about in practical terms. 

I didn't get the impression from this guy, nor do I think I gave the impression, that he was talking about the subject of the courses, but rather the perspective through which the material is filtered.

I also didn't say it was about the opinions of the student body, that was injected by someone else. The impression I got (and again, intended to convey) was that it was the lens that instruction was coming through. Just to read into it a bit from my own experience, there was a prof in my undergrad who fancied herself one of these modern "free speech" warriors, like a Jordan Peterson - and despite having her in 3 different courses with 3 different topics, it found into all of them, usually at least once a week. So a different professor teaching the same course could still give very different slants on it - and thus, presumptively, a school populated by professors with similar bends could give an instituion-wide bend to things.

He wasn't very specific about what form that took, so I can't give a lot of specifics as to what in particular he was alleging. He just said, essentially, that the school would not be a friendly experience to those who don't agree with it's politics and O&G focus. The hope was that other students/graduates of the UofC would see this and either recognize what he was talking about, or say "No, I haven't seen anything that fits that description."

Edited October 3, 2023 by CndnViking

[theycancallyouhoju]

Just now, CndnViking said:

I didn't get the impression from this guy, nor do I think I gave the impression, that he was talking about the subject of the courses, but rather the perspective through which the material is filtered.

I also didn't say it was about the opinions of the student body, that was injected by someone else. The impression I got (and again, intended to convey) was that it was the lens that instruction was coming through. 

He wasn't very specific about what form that took, so I can't give a lot of specifics. The hope was that other students/graduates of the UofC would see this and either recognize what he was talking about, or say "No, I haven't seen anything that fits that description."

There just isn’t as much lens, as I described above. The subject matter of first year courses is taught in a substantially consistent way. Some variation, some very political professors, but it’s nothing like an undergraduate humanities program. It’s not so much that ‘nothing fits that description’ as ‘that isn’t exactly the axis along which law school turns’. As I said, a few exceptions here and there.

But at any rate, your acquaintance’s advice re not attending Calgary if you’re not down for that slant is comprehensively and definitively wrong. That is not the way to choose a law school in any event, and reflects a real immaturity. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

42 minutes ago, CndnViking said:

Let's see, how can I put this with the appropriate amount of respect, commensurate to what I've seen you show? I mean, maybe it's not a "go fuck yourself" quite yet, but at the very least a "stuff it, troll" seems warranted. When I want snarky trolls to tell me what to do with my life, I'll make sure you and @CleanHands are at the top of the list I reach out to.

I’m not trolling you. If anything, I thought you were trolling us by acting as though your skin was made of graphene.

Maybe you are, which would be great news. But if you are actually as thin-skinned as you’ve shown yourself to be on this forum, you’re going to have an absolutely miserable time in practice. 

[theycancallyouhoju]

6 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I’m not trolling you. If anything, I thought you were trolling us by acting as though your skin was made of graphene.

Maybe you are, which would be great news. But if you are actually as thin-skinned as you’ve shown yourself to be on this forum, you’re going to have an absolutely miserable time in practice. 

You know, I really missed this place. 

[Yogurt Baron]

Just now, theycancallyouhoju said:

You know, I really missed this place. 

Hoju! This place has missed you.

It's been a bit of a weekend with our new viking friend, but it mostly hasn't been...like this...around here in a while.

[123]

1 minute ago, theycancallyouhoju said:

You know, I really missed this place. 

@CndnViking is livening the place in honour of your return, hoju. 

[theycancallyouhoju]

Just now, realpseudonym said:

@CndnViking is livening the place in honour of your return, hoju. 

And I am, definitely, honoured. 

[Yogurt Baron]

1 hour ago, CndnViking said:

I mean, maybe it's not a "go fuck yourself" quite yet, but at the very least a "stuff it, troll" seems warranted. When I want snarky trolls to tell me what to do with my life, I'll make sure you and @CleanHands are at the top of the list I reach out to.

Seriously, though, it's like looking in a fucking mirror over here. I used to say everyone I fought with was a "troll", too.

It is well-intentioned and kind advice, if understandably hard to hear, that someone as easily upset as you is going to have a hard road. Source: I am not convinced that this is not a "Looper" situation and that you're not literally me when I was 23, and I had a damn hard road. I am not the only one here who sees good and potential in you. But this isn't the way.

[CndnViking]

2 hours ago, Yogurt Baron said:

I used to say everyone I fought with was a "troll", too.

That's not at all what's happening here. In fact you of all people know better. We've had multiple interactions now and where you've given even half-respectful, substantive responses I've responded in kind.

The first thing out of this asshole's mouth was insults, assurances that I'm obviously not capable of my aspirations, and telling a total stranger to give up on their career goals.... and you call that well-intentioned and kind? If anything, you're the one being kind there. For my part, he hopped into a situation where I was clearly already getting frustrated with all the condescension and decided he had to get him some too. I called him a troll because it's how he was behaving. If that changes, so to will the manner in which I respond to him.

Edited October 3, 2023 by CndnViking