UOttawa vs TMU (working in Toronto/gta)

[Fyodor]

Hello. If I want to work in the GTA for employment/labour law what would the better option be? As of now I’m not applying to TMU as they only offer one course in my interest. Yet Ottawa offers 3.  I also figure finding job experience may be even harder in Toronto when competing against UofT, Osgoode, and all the other students who come back.

Should I bother applying to Tmu in this case? The application is really long and personally I’d rather live in Ottawa for 3 yrs than 3 more years at TMU. I want a change of scenery and I also like that UOttawa has a lot of alumni. However, I’d also want to keep the big law option open in employment/labour (if that’s even an option). Would Tmu give me a leg up in that case?
 

Thanks!

Edited October 17, 2023 by Fyodor

[BirdsArentReal]

Being in Toronto geographically definitely offers substantial advantages, but you just have to work to seek out those opportunities and utilize them. If UOttawa is your top choice and better aligns with your interests, then that's completely fair. TMU places on par (percentage wise) to UOttawa for the 2L recruit, if that is of interest. In addition, from personal experience the practical program at TMU is very useful, despite it being very new and in its developmental stage. Some larger employers had good reviews of the IPC curriculum, and some have also allowed students to waive their articling requirement. However, this is never guaranteed.

Both schools have their advantages, you just have to determine whether you would attend TMU if you dont get accepted to Ottawa. 

[Scrantonicity2]

I'm curious why you're only considering Ottawa or TMU? Osgoode offers a TON (relatively speaking) of Labour/Employment courses and a stream focusing on L&E. There's also a lot of L&E scholarship coming out of Queen's - although I can't speak to how that translates to the JD experience. All that being said, if you can demonstrate a strong interest in L&E (extra-curriculars, clinics, courses, research) and do fairly well in your courses, the school you choose probably won't make or break your chances of getting into this area of law, even in Toronto.

[Fyodor]

7 minutes ago, Scrantonicity2 said:

I'm curious why you're only considering Ottawa or TMU? Osgoode offers a TON (relatively speaking) of Labour/Employment courses and a stream focusing on L&E. There's also a lot of L&E scholarship coming out of Queen's - although I can't speak to how that translates to the JD experience. All that being said, if you can demonstrate a strong interest in L&E (extra-curriculars, clinics, courses, research) and do fairly well in your courses, the school you choose probably won't make or break your chances of getting into this area of law, even in Toronto.

I am mainly considering these schools because they are probably more realistic based on my stats and want to be prepared for (hopefully) when the time comes. This is because I knew people who only had days to decide where to go. 
 

I’m a disabled student with a 3.95/4.00 OLSAS Cgpa and (3.97/4.00 after I received treatment for my disability). I just don’t think I’ll pull off the LSAT needed to get into Osgoode and possibly Queens/Western. I typically PTed between 157-162 but after writing my first LSAT a week ago it went terrible. Got absolutely hammered in the worst LG section I encountered in my life. I wouldn’t be surprised if I got between a high 140 and a low 150 on that one atp. I’m still writing 2 more LSATs for this upcoming cycle but am just feeling terrible after the first.

However, I’ve encountered countless students at TMU and UOttawa in similar scenarios with good gpas and lower LSATs that squeaked in. 

Im most interested in employment/labour law but also disability and family law. It’s hard because from what I’ve seen it seems Tmu really does have a proximity difference but UOttawa offers more courses in the fields I’m interested in. 

Thank you for the advice though! I know wherever I’ll go I’ll do my best to be involved in as much as I can. I truly hope at the end of the day it doesn’t make or break my career. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Fyodor

[Fyodor]

1 hour ago, BirdsArentReal said:

Being in Toronto geographically definitely offers substantial advantages, but you just have to work to seek out those opportunities and utilize them. If UOttawa is your top choice and better aligns with your interests, then that's completely fair. TMU places on par (percentage wise) to UOttawa for the 2L recruit, if that is of interest. In addition, from personal experience the practical program at TMU is very useful, despite it being very new and in its developmental stage. Some larger employers had good reviews of the IPC curriculum, and some have also allowed students to waive their articling requirement. However, this is never guaranteed.

Both schools have their advantages, you just have to determine whether you would attend TMU if you dont get accepted to Ottawa. 

Thank you for this! It really is a hard decision because if I got into both I could commute to TMU but it’s still 45min to an hour which absolutely drained me in the past. I would also struggle to rent downtown. 
 

It’s great to see that there’s good reviews already which makes me think it’s worth it to apply even if it’s kind of a last minute application. Thank you!

[Scrantonicity2]

That makes sense! In that case, if I were in your shoes, I would go for OttawaU. Partly for the reasons you've described, but more because it beats TMU on tuition cost and cost of living (Ottawa isn't as cheap as it once was, but Toronto is a hellish nightmare re: housing costs). 

[Fyodor]

3 minutes ago, Scrantonicity2 said:

That makes sense! In that case, if I were in your shoes, I would go for OttawaU. Partly for the reasons you've described, but more because it beats TMU on tuition cost and cost of living (Ottawa isn't as cheap as it once was, but Toronto is a hellish nightmare re: housing costs). 

It’s funny because that’s where it would get harder! Tmu tuition is pricey but would actually be cheaper than UOttawa in the long run. I’d have to commute to Tmu and live with next to no expenses when if I moved to UOttawa I’d have to rent. I guess that’s where I question if the extra 10-12k roughly to live at Ottawa would be worth it. 

[soundofconfusion]

There is absolutely no benefit to Ottawa here. You can live rent-free in Toronto and you want to work in Toronto and don't want to work in Ottawa.

Courses don't matter that much. They're a way of signaling interest, but not the only way, and two courses are certainly not worth going to a school that's otherwise much worse for you over. I'm assuming you have a reason for being interested in labour and employment specifically. Take the course available on that, take any related moots (there will definitely be some) and join a student society (there will likely be one, and if not, you can start it) and speak to your interest with it and you should be fine.

 

[Fyodor]

On 10/17/2023 at 1:09 PM, soundofconfusion said:

There is absolutely no benefit to Ottawa here. You can live rent-free in Toronto and you want to work in Toronto and don't want to work in Ottawa.

Courses don't matter that much. They're a way of signaling interest, but not the only way, and two courses are certainly not worth going to a school that's otherwise much worse for you over. I'm assuming you have a reason for being interested in labour and employment specifically. Take the course available on that, take any related moots (there will definitely be some) and join a student society (there will likely be one, and if not, you can start it) and speak to your interest with it and you should be fine.

 

Thank you for the feedback!

Being able to live rent free and only having to pay TTC fares is significantly cheaper than moving to Ottawa. It would also be nice to still have family emotional support. I simply just don't know how vital school rep/alumni network is which tends to be what leans other people saying to pick Ottawa. I have also seen a mixture of approval and hate for TMU which confuses me. You're right that in reality the only pro with Ottawa aside from the alumni record and established reputation is simply two more courses in my case. 

Thanks for the added perspective!

Edited October 21, 2023 by Fyodor

[soundofconfusion]

1 hour ago, Fyodor said:

school rep/alumni network

Ottawa isn't known for L&E. Neither is TMU. Osgoode, UofT, and Queens are, and even then, it's often not about being an alum in and of itself, but about having done a particular moot or clinic or journal that some of the people hiring you also did. Depending on the moot/clinic/journal you do, it can be very important. But it can also mean nothing.

Ultimately, legal employers, including in L&E, are just looking for smart students who are genuinely interested in what they do and who are decent to talk to. If you can show that you're smart (primarily but not exclusively by getting good grades), that you are genuinely interested in the area (which can be done by having some kind of relevant pre-law background or experience, joining a relevant student club, doing some relevant volunteering through Pro Bono Students Canada, doing a relevant moot/clinic/journal, taking courses available to you that are relevant to the work), and are decent to talk to, you will be fine. There are a variety of corporations, unions, firms (large, mid-sized, and small; boutique and full-service alike), legal clinics, and government departments that hire students to do some kind of L&E work. Some might like specific programs more than others, in a vacuum (if you want more specifics, happy to DM). But ultimately at base they'll all care that you demonstrate that you're smart, interested, and personable, and TMU students do not seem appreciably worse at getting these jobs than Ottawa students thus far.

1 hour ago, Fyodor said:

I have also seen a mixture of approval and hate for TMU which confuses me.

The approval and the hate both seem overstated. TMU is not the best thing since sliced bread. It's not producing an army of incredible, practice-ready law students that no other law school can hope to match. But it's also not a bad law school. Like Windsor and Ottawa, it's fine. You'll get a job out of it, and probably one you're reasonably happy with, especially if you figure out what you're interested in and lean into that.

1 hour ago, Fyodor said:

two more courses in my case.

Even this is overstated. Looking at TMU's website, there seem to be a lot of courses it offers that, in conjunction with taking Labour & Employment, would help demonstrate your interest in the area. Privacy Law, Tax Law & Practice, Disability Law, Negotiation Theory & Practice, Sports & Entertainment Law, Public Interest Litigation, Class Actions, Evidence, Advocacy & ADR, Civil Procedures & Practice, Business Law & Practice, 1Ls' mandatory Admin Law course... All of these are L&E-related.

Quote

Being able to live rent free... family emotional support

These are big, important factors for both your personal well-being and success in law school. You need to weight those much more heavily, and weight the nebulous, highly contextual, and (in the case of comparing Ottawa and TMU for L&E work in Toronto) essentially nonexistent factors of school rep and alumni networks, much more lightly.

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by soundofconfusion
typos and syntax; last quote added