Do firms tell you what they pay DURING or AFTER the recruit?

[non-monogamist]

Basically title. I have no idea what firms pay (or any of the other benefits they might include as part of employee compensation) so I’m trying to figure out when the best time would be to ask. I know that ZSA has a break down for firms in Toronto and Vancouver, but I’m primarily interpreted in Ottawa and there seems to be very little information out there. 

Obviously I wouldn’t during OCIs or a coffee chat, but at what stage on the recruit? First day? Second day? I know that should probably feel lucky to walk away from the recruit with ANY job, but I would have a hard time just blindly accepting an offer to work somewhere without knowing. 

Anecdotally I’ve heard that some Ottawa firms pay 1250/wk, but the problem is I have no idea which ones do and which ones don’t and knowing my luck I’ll probably fall in love with a firm on the lower end (personally tend to gravitate towards boutiques/smaller firms). 

What about their lockstep? I know that big firms in Toronto typically pay 130k base with an additional 20k raise every year you stick around the firm, but what about firms in Ottawa? I know that it will almost certainly be less, but exactly HOW MUCH less? 25%, 50%, 75% ???

Anecdotally I’ve heard that the lockstep for Ottawa firms tends to hover around 10k/yr, but again there are vast disparities in the market and I’d like to know before accepting an articling position so that I can make the most informed decision I possibly can. 

The only problem is I don’t when the most appropriate time would be to ask or how to bring it up without making it sound like everything revolves around money.

I understand that job satisfaction and liking your boss/colleagues is very important. Money is just one (important) factor out of many to consider when taking a job. In fact, I actually have no problem taking a pay cut to work at a place I would really like. The thing is, I would just want to know these numbers so that I can weigh the opportunity cost myself to make a more informed decision. 

Ex:

If firm A is my top choice, an extra 5k as an articling student and 3k/yr lockstep from firm B likely won’t change my mind. 

But if firm A is my top choice and firm B is offering an extra 15k for articling and 10k/yr lockstep I’d go with them in a heartbeat. Hell for that price I’d even consider working for my lowest ranked option if I’m being completely honest. 

Does anyone have any insight on this? 
 

 

[Jaggers]

That’s a pretty small price to sell yourself for. 

[non-monogamist]

56 minutes ago, Jaggers said:

That’s a pretty small price to sell yourself for. 

Perhaps, but as a student with loans to pay it isn’t up to me to take a pay cut so that partners can go on an extravagant vacation or drive a nicer car. 

The way I see it there are two reason why a firm purposely wouldn’t match (or come close to matching, again the point here isn’t to chase every last dollar but to be close enough in the same range) the rate of other firms: 

A) They don’t feel like I’m worth it. In which case why would I want to work for them when there’s a better on the proverbial table. 

B) They do think I’m worth it, but can’t afford it. That’s a sign the firm is in a precarious financial position and probably not the right place to build a career long term anyways.

*I admit that things are different in bigger cities like Toronto and Vancouver so maybe 10k doesn’t seem like a lot to those practicing in those cities. The other caveat here is that firms in Ottawa hire significantly less students (BLG is the biggest with 11 meanwhile McMillan/Stikes/Osler only hires 2) so payroll for articling students amounts to being a much smaller percentage of the firm’s operating expenses. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by non-monogamist
Extra context

[Diplock]

2 hours ago, non-monogamist said:

Perhaps, but as a student with loans to pay it isn’t up to me to take a pay cut so that partners can go on an extravagant vacation or drive a nicer car.

I don't fault you for being concerned about money or for wanting to know what you're going to make in advance. In fact, it's symptomatic of the big problem of excessive family privilege in the legal profession that anyone imagines for a moment it's reasonable to expect anyone won't be concerned about that. And I'm the guy who really takes on privilege as a topic. However.

Just to put things in proper context, your salary (whatever it is) isn't what's padding the bottom lines of partners in a major law firm. Students are not a source of revenue generation. They are, overall, a loss. You can argue that everything the firm does is aimed at making money so everything contributes to the profit line, and that's reasonable. But in the short-term, at least, the profitability of a firm would definitely increase if they hired fewer students.

I'm saying that simply because your concern is fair in a wide sense, but this idea that partners are somehow unfairly profiting off the work of employees who aren't partners is something you should keep tightly reined in until you develop some perspective. Is it true they are profiting off a workhorse associate? Probably. Is it true they are profiting off badly paid (in relative terms) document review counsel doing necessary work they are passing on at a considerable mark up? Definitely. Does all of this represent profiting "unfairly?" I don't know - depends on whether you're interested in indicting capitalism as a whole or if you're just in this conversation to bitch about what you are personally paid. But that's another topic.

My point is, you should definitely find out through whatever means possible what you're going to earn, and I won't fault you for needing to care about it. But some of the collateral attitude is going to get you into shit if anyone picks up on it.

P.S. I'll have the conversation about what is "fair" and "unfair" in terms of profit models, if you or anyone else really wants to do it. But cards on the table. I'm going to be mean as hell to anyone who only resents capitalism when they aren't getting a piece of the pie as large as they imagine they deserve, but is fine with capitalism otherwise. By any reasonable definition, every employed lawyer is "winning" in this game, relative to the whole field. You can complain you aren't earning what you think is a fair share relative to those who are taking home more than you are, but I won't let anyone get off on having that conversation without also including the guy who makes your coffee in the same conversation, and whether he's paid fairly relative to your income. Just saying.

[non-monogamist]

@Diplock nowhere was I indicting the system of capitalism. I also understand that lawyers as a whole have better employment prospects than the vast majority of the population. 

What I am bitching about, is the lack of transparency involved in the system of student recruitment. When I referred to “taking a pay cut” it was the context of a hypothetical scenario where I’d potentially be choosing between a small firm I really want to work at and a larger firm I am much less excited to work at. 

All I know is that there is a gap in pay (and total compensation) between these two firms. The problem is I have no idea HOW MUCH of a gap there is because unlike Vancouver, Calgary, or Toronto there is very little information out there on Ottawa firms.  

As far as your comment goes about articling students being a loss rather than a source of revenue generation for firms, I’ll take your word for it. I never meant to imply that senior associates or partners are “unfairly profiting” off an articling student’s work. All I’m saying is that if firm A is paying 10k more for that price I’d whore myself out to a place I don’t want to work at. 

Do I think that I’ll be bringing 10K more value to firm A as an articling student than if I worked at firm B? Absolutely not. For all I know, they could work me harder and get more out of me so there ROI is actually higher despite paying me more - so in essence they could in theory keep a higher percentage of the revenue I generate. And I would have absolutely not problem with that because both the firm and I would be in a better position - the firm gets an employee who bills more hours and recoups their investment faster through more training and I get to pay off my student loans faster - even if the percentage I get from every hour I bill is less. 

Maybe firm B pays 10k less but has a better work-life balance. I don’t know, and that’s the frustrating part because without that sort of information it’s impossible to make an informed decision. 

Tl;Dr: If anyone knows what the billable hour requirements are at Ottawa law firms, and what the base salary/lockstep per year typically is, I would love to know. At the very least, to who/when should these questions be addressed. 

[BHC1]

I think the poster asked a fair question so I will attempt to address it. 

During the recruit, it’s fair to ask current articling student about their salary if you build a good rapport. They won’t have much impact if any on the hiring decision. I strongly recommend that you do NOT do this at every firm you in-firm at though, and I certainly would not do this at every firm you OCI for. As the recruit goes forward, both the firms and you will be narrowing each other down (some places you won’t like, same places won’t like you). Once it gets to the last few (firms you are genuinely interested in; firms that have shown genuine interest in you), it really is okay to start asking around. 

In the event you receive multiple offers (lucky you 😂) it’s also okay alternatively to ask for the salary information once offers have been made - though firms will be pressuring you to make a decision quickly. if you get multiple offers, you can then compare them. 

I also went for coffee with a few lawyers from some of the smaller firms I was interested in prior to the recruit and got some insight on salary through them. I’m not sure if this is a good idea or not, but every lawyer was very honest about it and they didn’t seem to hold it against me during the recruiting process. 

A lot of this info is online throughout this forum too (not sure about Ottawa). If I have some time I may try and compile it together. 

[acatinthesun]

I totally get the financial considerations here - I am an early career lawyer with a few loans of my own and I feel ya. I just want to caution that choosing a relatively small amount of money (15k)over a supportive workplace interested in your development in the short term can really have consequences for long term career prospects. Burn out is a consideration and the real money comes down the road.

[LMP]

10 hours ago, non-monogamist said:

Basically title. I have no idea what firms pay (or any of the other benefits they might include as part of employee compensation) so I’m trying to figure out when the best time would be to ask. I know that ZSA has a break down for firms in Toronto and Vancouver, but I’m primarily interpreted in Ottawa and there seems to be very little information out there. 

Obviously I wouldn’t during OCIs or a coffee chat, but at what stage on the recruit? First day? Second day? I know that should probably feel lucky to walk away from the recruit with ANY job, but I would have a hard time just blindly accepting an offer to work somewhere without knowing. 

Anecdotally I’ve heard that some Ottawa firms pay 1250/wk, but the problem is I have no idea which ones do and which ones don’t and knowing my luck I’ll probably fall in love with a firm on the lower end (personally tend to gravitate towards boutiques/smaller firms). 

What about their lockstep? I know that big firms in Toronto typically pay 130k base with an additional 20k raise every year you stick around the firm, but what about firms in Ottawa? I know that it will almost certainly be less, but exactly HOW MUCH less? 25%, 50%, 75% ???

Anecdotally I’ve heard that the lockstep for Ottawa firms tends to hover around 10k/yr, but again there are vast disparities in the market and I’d like to know before accepting an articling position so that I can make the most informed decision I possibly can. 

The only problem is I don’t when the most appropriate time would be to ask or how to bring it up without making it sound like everything revolves around money.

I understand that job satisfaction and liking your boss/colleagues is very important. Money is just one (important) factor out of many to consider when taking a job. In fact, I actually have no problem taking a pay cut to work at a place I would really like. The thing is, I would just want to know these numbers so that I can weigh the opportunity cost myself to make a more informed decision. 

Ex:

If firm A is my top choice, an extra 5k as an articling student and 3k/yr lockstep from firm B likely won’t change my mind. 

But if firm A is my top choice and firm B is offering an extra 15k for articling and 10k/yr lockstep I’d go with them in a heartbeat. Hell for that price I’d even consider working for my lowest ranked option if I’m being completely honest. 

Does anyone have any insight on this? 
 

 

Asking former summer students (try and find em through LinkedIn) normally yields an answer. I've never offended anyone by asking and I've never shyed away from answering when asked by applicants. 

You can also ask, as others have said, once you receive an offer but be aware that the person calling you won't always know the salary. 

 

[Jaggers]

2 hours ago, acatinthesun said:

I totally get the financial considerations here - I am an early career lawyer with a few loans of my own and I feel ya. I just want to caution that choosing a relatively small amount of money (15k)over a supportive workplace interested in your development in the short term can really have consequences for long term career prospects. Burn out is a consideration and the real money comes down the road.

If everything else is equal, a small pay bump is a totally valid reason to pick one over the other. However, it's not typical that all other things are equal. When you're looking at tradeoffs, it's worth considering that a few years from now, you'll probably be in a place where you won't really notice much of a difference flowing from a small pay increase you might have gotten a few years ago. If you have tangible things that will offer you a better career development path, I would weigh that much more heavily than a little bit higher pay.

[Cool_name]

2 hours ago, acatinthesun said:

I totally get the financial considerations here - I am an early career lawyer with a few loans of my own and I feel ya. I just want to caution that choosing a relatively small amount of money (15k)over a supportive workplace interested in your development in the short term can really have consequences for long term career prospects. Burn out is a consideration and the real money comes down the road.

Ya sure, but to be fair as an incoming student you really have no idea what the firms are really like. They will all put their bubbly recruiters up front. 
 

Just because a firm pays less doesn’t mean they will offer more mentorship and support

[Cool_name]

Re asking about pay, personally I see no issues asking pay and progression of the same as an associate. Framing the associate part should be a bit couched not to seem to presumptive, but if it follows a question about hireback rates etc then it would flow

 

You should also ask about hours. Firms should also tell you about hours, some won’t and some may give you a wishy washy answer, this likely means they work a lot.

Neither are oci questions, and are generally better to be asked to the current articling student / associate.

I think the general advice is not to ask about either, but I’d rather know what I’m getting myself into and I can’t imagine a student asking be the reason why or why not they were hired. It wouldn’t affect my perception at least. 

[helloall]

1 hour ago, Cool_name said:

You should also ask about hours. Firms should also tell you about hours, some won’t and some may give you a wishy washy answer, this likely means they work a lot.

All of them work a lot. Ask about the bonus structure instead. Some firms are better than others, and it comes down to bonuses.

[Cool_name]

12 minutes ago, helloall said:

All of them work a lot. Ask about the bonus structure instead. Some firms are better than others, and it comes down to bonuses.

There are ranges to what a lot means, especially if you aren’t exclusively going for the name brand big law firms.

[Dinsdale]

I would wait until you have received an offer.  That is when you have the most leverage.  Ask the PD Director -- she knows the answer.  Or, quietly asking current students during interviews is ok too.  It would be very unusual for a candidate to ask about salary in a formal interview with a partner; and most partners probably won't know the correct answer anyway (in larger firms at least).

[non-monogamist]

9 hours ago, acatinthesun said:

I totally get the financial considerations here - I am an early career lawyer with a few loans of my own and I feel ya. I just want to caution that choosing a relatively small amount of money (15k)over a supportive workplace interested in your development in the short term can really have consequences for long term career prospects. Burn out is a consideration and the real money comes down the road.

That is very true and overall I think this is solid advice. The problem though is that I’ll graduate with a 150k worth a debt. 

If I was choosing between a 100k and 115k salary, I’d take the lower of the two if it meant I got to work at a firm loved. The problem is though that Ottawa salaries are notoriously lower in comparison. So choosing between 60k and 75k is a lot harder, because I’m this situation going with the power paying option would it significantly more difficult for me to pay rent. 

It’s sad, but the poorer you are the more every individual dollar means to you because it’s going to things you need on a day to day basis (rent, groceries, loans) instead of luxuries (fancy clothes, vacations, restaurants). 

7 hours ago, LMP said:

Asking former summer students (try and find em through LinkedIn) normally yields an answer. I've never offended anyone by asking and I've never shyed away from answering when asked by applicants. 

You can also ask, as others have said, once you receive an offer but be aware that the person calling you won't always know the salary. 

 

Okay so this is interesting. I was under the impression that if you first choiced a firm that there’s effectively no negotiation anymore. Basically you either keep your promise to accept their offer, otherwise if you back out your reputation gets ruined. 
 

Can you first choice a firm and then ask them what salary they’re offering on call day without looking like an asshole. Genuinely curious if that’s standard/acceptable practice.

[non-monogamist]

6 hours ago, Cool_name said:

 

I think the general advice is not to ask about either, but I’d rather know what I’m getting myself into and I can’t imagine a student asking be the reason why or why not they were hired. It wouldn’t affect my perception at least. 

Generally I agree with this, thank you for making me like I’m not alone. In this scenario, should I be asking the articling/junior associate once I’m at the in firm stage could it be done before hand e.g. coffee chat. Obviously that wouldn’t be the first question I ask someone, but if we start off talking about what he/she/they like about the firm, progress to work life-balance, and then bring compensation. Would that potentially prevent me from being offered an OCI?

4 hours ago, Dinsdale said:

I would wait until you have received an offer.  That is when you have the most leverage.  Ask the PD Director -- she knows the answer.  Or, quietly asking current students during interviews is ok too.  It would be very unusual for a candidate to ask about salary in a formal interview with a partner; and most partners probably won't know the correct answer anyway (in larger firms at least).

PD Director? 

[LMP]

1 hour ago, non-monogamist said:

 

Okay so this is interesting. I was under the impression that if you first choiced a firm that there’s effectively no negotiation anymore. Basically you either keep your promise to accept their offer, otherwise if you back out your reputation gets ruined. 
 

Can you first choice a firm and then ask them what salary they’re offering on call day without looking like an asshole. Genuinely curious if that’s standard/acceptable practice.

Right, so two points here. 

1. When they firms call you, on call day, to offer you a job you are allowed to say "great, thanks for the offer, let me think about it". And you have 24hrs in which you can hold those offers open. So you can ask when they call "what is the salary". 

Now does that look a little bad if you've already gotten down on your knees and proclaimed you'd accept their offer on call day with gratitude or some other first choice-y abasement like that? Yeah, but that's why you should only retract if the salary is truly out of line. Though even then I suppose some would say it is on you to have down your due diligence. 

At the same time you can play it a bit cooler with firms (delicate line to walk) and have more flexibility with your choice on call day. 

 

2. So you can actually negotiate even after you get the job. Not every place will say yes and in fact most places (especially big law firms with set student salaries) won't budge. But some botiques do move and you are always allowed to ask before signing the offer letter.

[non-monogamist]

30 minutes ago, LMP said:

Right, so two points here. 

1. When they firms call you, on call day, to offer you a job you are allowed to say "great, thanks for the offer, let me think about it". And you have 24hrs in which you can hold those offers open. So you can ask when they call "what is the salary". 

Now does that look a little bad if you've already gotten down on your knees and proclaimed you'd accept their offer on call day with gratitude or some other first choice-y abasement like that? Yeah, but that's why you should only retract if the salary is truly out of line. Though even then I suppose some would say it is on you to have down your due diligence. 

At the same time you can play it a bit cooler with firms (delicate line to walk) and have more flexibility with your choice on call day. 

 

2. So you can actually negotiate even after you get the job. Not every place will say yes and in fact most places (especially big law firms with set student salaries) won't budge. But some botiques do move and you are always allowed to ask before signing the offer letter.

This is very helpful, thank you. So your opinion, if you were in my shoes, would you ask about compensation and benefits on day 2/3 of in firms to an articling student or junior associate. Or should I do this even before hand (ex:when coffee chatting people prior to even applying).

[LMP]

35 minutes ago, non-monogamist said:

This is very helpful, thank you. So your opinion, if you were in my shoes, would you ask about compensation and benefits on day 2/3 of in firms to an articling student or junior associate. Or should I do this even before hand (ex:when coffee chatting people prior to even applying).

I'd ask now. Find someone on LinkedIn who went to your school and worked at the firm. Ask to set up a chat. Talk about some general recurit stuff and the work they do. Then ask about the pay. Most people are pretty happy to blab on about the firm and job (I was when candidates contacted me) and this should be an easy chat. 

[reaperlaw]

You don't need to be anxious about pay, you just need to get some knowledge. One easy way is to use an internet archive such as archive.org to look at NALP Canada before they removed salaries/compensation this summer because of the new Competition Act amendments. If you do that, you'll see that most of the big law firms and ranked boutiques (e.g. Chambers) are at the top of Ottawa market which is $1,250/week or approximately $65,000 annualized for summer and articling. I believe a handful specialized shops pay the same as their Toronto office for students but perhaps that has changed as I heard that a couple years ago now. Of the firms I am thinking of, one does almost exclusively IP in their Ottawa office and the other does L&E so you can make your own guesses for who that might be. Some of the regional firms match this pay but others do not. Likewise, the boutiques who aren't provincially/nationally ranked will also likely be lower. 

Associate pay dynamics are similar. The IP firms in general also tend to pay a bit above market rate but am unsure of the specifics beyond they are all at or over $100k for first year associates (pre-bonus). Non-IP positions at other top firms should be just under that. I don't know specifics of how associate pay works at most firms but I believe both some of the larger big law firms pull their associates off lockstep once they hit mid-level associate and then pay starts to vary widely between practice groups. I wouldn't be surprised if that is also true at other Ottawa firms given Ottawa has much lower billable rates than Toronto.

But just to echo, if you want to know pay specifics of a particular firm, you should feel free to ask people at those firms. I find lawyers—especially younger ones—are pretty open discussing pay and don't find it awkward if someone asks. That said, depending on the firm, an articling student or a first year associate may not know that much beyond their current level.

Edited November 2, 2023 by reaperlaw

[BeRightBack]

In my experience, its around the final interview. They will either send you an email before the final interview or you could ask during the final interview. This is usually the time when they are asking you first choice questions. You can confirm during the offer call too, if you didn't get a chance before.