How to land a job on bay street?

[Jk1997]

I failed to get a job in the 2L recurit despite being a realtivley competitive candiate. What does the road to working at a full service bay street firm look like, and what can i do to boost my chances of getting one of these jobs in the future? 

[uoftearsalumna]

I was presented with the analogy that Bay Street is a revolving door, with people entering and exiting all at the same time. Though we didn’t land, our colleagues that did by the time they’re mid level (3-4 years post call, sometimes sooner sometimes later), they [some, not all] will start to look elsewhere and laterals will be needed for a multitude of reasons. I’m sure this comment alone will spark a lot of debate, but this is typical behaviour - a lot of lawyers i networked with over the summer in prep for the recruit are no longer at their firms. Things change a lot. A lot is impacted by market fluctuations too. In 2021, there were first year associates lateraling like crazy due to the boom during Covid. I have a similar goal as you, and our time will come. [Please feel free to correct this analogy. How I presented it here is how it was described to be, but curious to hear other perspectives]. 

Sooner than the above, there is the articling recruit, but they’re few and far in between. Also other jurisdictions as well - the Ottawa recruit is coming up soon. 

Feel free to message me directly if you’d like to chat more about how you’re feeling. I get how hard it’s been, this has been the toughest few days for me as well. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by uoftearsalumna

[BHC1]

If you’re interested in litigation, the work off Bay Street depending on the firm can give you directly relevant experience. Davies may defend a lot of class actions, but it will often be small firms in London or Hamilton taking them on. Similarly, while McCarthy, Lerners, and Leczner have contracts to represent doctors in regulatory and civil proceedings, personal injury firms with 2-4 lawyers will often be representing the injured Plaintiffs. After a few years, there will be a lot of opportunities for a lateral hire. 

Perhaps this is also a good time for self-reflection. Why exactly do you want to work at a “full service Bay Street” firm? Really reflect on your answer - if it’s something superficial, maybe this is an opportunity to find something else that you really want to do. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by BHC1

[Dinsdale]

Agree with this comment about litigation work.  It's the hardcore public company work that is harder to replicate at smaller firms and in small centres.  Which is the bread-and-butter of Bay Street, after all.

As I said in another thread, the next best route after the 2L recruit is the articling recruit.  It is smaller but it exists.  It gives you the opportunity to submit your 2L grades as well as 1L.  Needless to say, these become really important given the smaller number of positions on offer.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Dinsdale

[BlockedQuebecois]

51 minutes ago, BHC1 said:

If you’re interested in litigation, the work off Bay Street depending on the firm can give you directly relevant experience. Davies may defend a lot of class actions, but it will often be small firms in London or Hamilton taking them on. Similarly, while McCarthy, Lerners, and Leczner have contracts to represent doctors in regulatory and civil proceedings, personal injury firms with 2-4 lawyers will often be representing the injured Plaintiffs. After a few years, there will be a lot of opportunities for a lateral hire. 

Not to be a dick, but there’s a huge quality gap between the vast majority of the class action / personal injury mills and the good litigation shops on Bay Street. The fact that both firms have lawyers in the same court room doesn’t mean the experience is comparable. 

[BHC1]

1 hour ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Not to be a dick, but there’s a huge quality gap between the vast majority of the class action / personal injury mills and the good litigation shops on Bay Street. The fact that both firms have lawyers in the same court room doesn’t mean the experience is comparable. 

Don’t disagree. But from what I’ve seen, it hasn’t stopped anyone from lateraling. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

In my experience, there’s not a lot of movement from personal injury mills in London to the Davies, McCarthy’s, and Lenczner’s of the world.

I’m sure it happens on occasion, and if it’s the best gig someone can get then so be it, but it’s not what I would be advising someone do if they’ve just struck out in the 2L recruit. 

[Jk1997]

4 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

In my experience, there’s not a lot of movement from personal injury mills in London to the Davies, McCarthy’s, and Lenczner’s of the world.

I’m sure it happens on occasion, and if it’s the best gig someone can get then so be it, but it’s not what I would be advising someone do if they’ve just struck out in the 2L recruit. 

Ya, i'm not really intersted in personal injury firms in Londons. Personal injury in toronto I could see myself doing if i could see it leading somewhere. I'm primarly interested in corproate work and open to transactional or litigiation.

[Jk1997]

6 hours ago, BHC1 said:

If you’re interested in litigation, the work off Bay Street depending on the firm can give you directly relevant experience. Davies may defend a lot of class actions, but it will often be small firms in London or Hamilton taking them on. Similarly, while McCarthy, Lerners, and Leczner have contracts to represent doctors in regulatory and civil proceedings, personal injury firms with 2-4 lawyers will often be representing the injured Plaintiffs. After a few years, there will be a lot of opportunities for a lateral hire. 

Perhaps this is also a good time for self-reflection. Why exactly do you want to work at a “full service Bay Street” firm? Really reflect on your answer - if it’s something superficial, maybe this is an opportunity to find something else that you really want to do. 

honestly, the reason i want "full service bay street firm" is the money. If i couldd make the same money elwherse I'd likely be happy 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Jk1997

[ccq35]

Many others have said this, but there are much easier ways to make money. Big law is generally sustainable only if you actually enjoy the work; the money doesn’t compensate the sacrifices otherwise. 

[Jaggers]

It can also be worth sucking it up to get valuable experience that will open up other opportunities, but for that to make sense you'd still need to enjoy the subject matter, if not the environment.

[Jk1997]

9 hours ago, ccq35 said:

Many others have said this, but there are much easier ways to make money. Big law is generally sustainable only if you actually enjoy the work; the money doesn’t compensate the sacrifices otherwise. 

Such as? 

[Diplock]

19 minutes ago, Jk1997 said:

Such as? 

Nothing screams "privilege" like the blithe statement that there are not only ways, but even easy ways, to generate a six figure income straight out of school. I'm waiting for the big reveal also. If this was a YouTube video, it would have something to do with vaguely defined passive income that involves first signing up for a course that costs thousands to learn the "secret" and/or bitcoin and/or NFTs. Here, I don't know. But I feel like if we get an answer at all, it will be a soup of vague assertions using "consulting" as a base. Just my guess.

[Rashabon]

The people who usually say that are thinking that they could become high paid tech employees or finance professionals just as easily. That may be true for some and in at least the latter case possibly more lucrative, but the vast majority of people aren't making more money outside big law than within it, with such little effort.

I got a big law job by showing up to law school and getting good grades. It really wasn't all that difficult, as compared to having to hustle in other industries to make a similar compensation level. And may pay goes up every year without fail.

[Jk1997]

13 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

The people who usually say that are thinking that they could become high paid tech employees or finance professionals just as easily. That may be true for some and in at least the latter case possibly more lucrative, but the vast majority of people aren't making more money outside big law than within it, with such little effort.

I got a big law job by showing up to law school and getting good grades. It really wasn't all that difficult, as compared to having to hustle in other industries to make a similar compensation level. And may pay goes up every year without fail.

In your experience on bay street, is it common to see lateral from outside of Bay Street?

[Rashabon]

1 hour ago, Jk1997 said:

In your experience on bay street, is it common to see lateral from outside of Bay Street?

Rarely in my area of practice although it does happen from in-house positions or the U.S. You would typically see laterals from other Bay Street shops or the smaller ones that aren't known in the space, occasionally.

Other groups like litigation probably pull from a wider source, and when hiring lateral partners they might come from a variety of places.

[WhoKnows]

On 11/12/2023 at 10:00 AM, Jaggers said:

It can also be worth sucking it up to get valuable experience that will open up other opportunities, but for that to make sense you'd still need to enjoy the subject matter, if not the environment.

I'm not even sure you need to enjoy the subject matter. If you just find it interesting enough that's likely to be sufficient. I don't think I "enjoy" my practice. I find it reasonably interesting and it's complex enough to tickle my brain, beyond that it's the doors it opens and the money/opportunities it brings that make it worthwhile. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by WhoKnows

[Jaggers]

But aren’t the “opportunities” linked to the subject matter?

[Dinsdale]

17 hours ago, Diplock said:

Nothing screams "privilege" like the blithe statement that there are not only ways, but even easy ways, to generate a six figure income straight out of school. I'm waiting for the big reveal also. If this was a YouTube video, it would have something to do with vaguely defined passive income that involves first signing up for a course that costs thousands to learn the "secret" and/or bitcoin and/or NFTs. Here, I don't know. But I feel like if we get an answer at all, it will be a soup of vague assertions using "consulting" as a base. Just my guess.

Write GMAT.  Get MBA with decent grades.  Go into investment banking.  No harder than law school, which presumably everyone here graduated from or will eventually.

[WhoKnows]

3 hours ago, Jaggers said:

But aren’t the “opportunities” linked to the subject matter?

I'm not thinking "opportunities" like jobs down the line, though there are a couple interesting paths there I may enjoy, and it certainly opens doors in community orgs/volunteering that appeal long term. 

I'm thinking "opportunities" like the opportunity to go on a couple nice vacations a year, eat at nice restaurants, retire when I'm like 50. I do something I don't actively hate daily, I'm not usually bored at work, and I live a pretty great life outside of work. If I chased "enjoyment" I don't think I'd get much of that. With that being said, I do find the work interesting and complex - if I didn't enjoy it and was bored, I'd likely be gone. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by WhoKnows

[CheeseToast]

On 11/12/2023 at 12:37 AM, BlockedQuebecois said:

Not to be a dick, but there’s a huge quality gap between the vast majority of the class action / personal injury mills and the good litigation shops on Bay Street. The fact that both firms have lawyers in the same court room doesn’t mean the experience is comparable. 

Don't suppose you could elaborate? Is the difference just in how deep a dive you do into each matter? Ie good lit shops will spend more time on stuff like research, drafting pleadings/motions/facta, discovery, etc.

[ccq35]

22 hours ago, Diplock said:

Nothing screams "privilege" like the blithe statement that there are not only ways, but even easy ways, to generate a six figure income straight out of school. I'm waiting for the big reveal also. If this was a YouTube video, it would have something to do with vaguely defined passive income that involves first signing up for a course that costs thousands to learn the "secret" and/or bitcoin and/or NFTs. Here, I don't know. But I feel like if we get an answer at all, it will be a soup of vague assertions using "consulting" as a base. Just my guess.

Diplock, I think you misunderstood me. I said “easier”, not “easy”, and “make money”, not “generate a six figure income straight out of school”. I don’t think it’s controversial that there are easier career paths than big law, and that it’s possible to make a decent living outside of big law. Also unsure how anything I said “screams privilege”; that seems presumptuous. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

1 hour ago, CheeseToast said:

Don't suppose you could elaborate? Is the difference just in how deep a dive you do into each matter? Ie good lit shops will spend more time on stuff like research, drafting pleadings/motions/facta, discovery, etc.

I think it’s fair to say that there is a gap both in the resources and time big firms are able to devote to files as well as the intellectual horsepower of the lawyers on either side. 

That’s not true across the board – there are plaintiff’s counsel who are incredibly smart (Harvey Strosberg and Reidar Mogerman, KC spring to mind immediately as examples of plaintiff’s counsel who are easily smart enough to practice anywhere). But on average, there’s a delta. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by BlockedQuebecois

[sarcasticlemon]

If you are still very interested in Bay Street, and you were competitive this year, spend your 2L becoming even more so and do the articling recruit. 
Some bay st/ large full service firms who did the 2L recruit I remember who also recruited during this years articling recruit: 

Davies

Clyde and Co

Dentons

Lerners

 Ridout Maybee

Rowand

Smart and Biggar. 
 

My advice to securing interviews is pretty much the same for 2L, except that experiences like mooting, internships and clinics are now in the picture and can help you. 

Good luck! 

 

 

[Naj]

On 11/12/2023 at 7:54 PM, Diplock said:

If this was a YouTube video, it would have something to do with vaguely defined passive income that involves first signing up for a course that costs thousands to learn the "secret" and/or bitcoin and/or NFTs.

 

 

Where it all started: