Queens Law vs Osgoode Hall

[corporatelawgeek]

Hi!

So I've applied to Osgoode and Queens law, and my cGPA currently is 3.98, but im getting even better marks now in my fourth year than in my third year, and am aiming for a 4.3, which I think I can do considering my current midterm grades. I've been studying for the LSAT since july, and i write in january. I started off with a 155 on my diagnostic, and i've been consistently scoring between 165-171. I intend on going into corporate law, potentially Big Law, not sure yet, but definitely corporate. I really don't know which school would be better to go to, granted, i haven't yet been accepted to either but I anticipate that I will be. I know that in general school isn't always an indicator of career success, grades are, but in terms of corporate law, alumni network, location, reputation, and general networking ability through the schools to firms, I think it does matter to a degree. I've heard amazing things about both, and location isn't really a huge deal, Toronto is a bit more ideal, but im doing my undergrad at Queens and Im used to the environment. Money also isn't an issue, I just want to know which school is better for corporate law, and which school would realistically open more doors career wise. I'm passionate about law and intend on going far, so I'm putting a pretty heavy weight on the school choice. Please help!!

Thanks!

[RuleAgainstPerpetuities]

Both schools are excellent, and I don't believe one is "better" in terms of curriculum for someone interested in corporate law. That being said, if you want to do corporate that almost certainly means you'll want to at least start off in biglaw, which means you're probably going to want to do the Toronto 1L and/or 2L Recruit.

Osgoode performs better in the 2L Toronto recruit by a pretty wide margin, with 30% of the class getting 2L positions compared with Queens' 22.6% - https://ultravires.ca/2022/12/toronto-summer-2023-2l-recruit-numbers/.

That gap is even wider in the 1L Toronto Recruit, with Osgoode placing 7% of students, and Queens placing 1% of students - https://ultravires.ca/2023/04/toronto-summer-2023-1l-recruit-numbers/.

Another benefit to Osgoode is that many of the big Toronto law firms will host discussion panels and networking events for Osgoode students to attend. These generally won't be useful from a career standpoint - a lot of law students way over estimate the value of shallow conversations at networking events - but they are a great perk of being in the same city as the big firms.

[Dinsdale]

This is all correct.  Finish in the top 15% at either school and you will be fine.  Finish outside the top 30% and you'll struggle to get into Biglaw. 

I would choose based on where you want to live and work for the next three years -- Kingston, or the far NW corner of Toronto?  I would also imagine that the social environment, etc., is very different at the two schools.  If it was me, I would investigate that further and not worry so much about Biglaw.

[chaboywb]

As far as courses and big law opportunities, Osgoode and Queens are similar, with Osgoode slightly edging out Queens for the latter. I believe some of the Osgoode statistical advantage for big law recruiting stems from more students being interested in big law at the Toronto-based schools, but I also believe some firms offer more OCI slots to Toronto schools.

So, the remaining considerations are geography and finances. In my day, I chose uOttawa over Osgoode because I preferred to live in Ottawa and wanted to pay less tuition and rent. Still wound up in big law, as did many of my peers. But if you prefer Toronto and don't care about cost, I see no reason why you shouldn't pick Osgoode.

Best of luck.

Edited November 28, 2023 by chaboywb

[Turtles]

Attending Osgoode or UofT means you can do two days of OCIs in the 2L recruit, while every other school is limited to one day. If interested in big law (most hiring is via the 2L recruit), I'm not sure why you would choose a school that cuts in half how many first round interviews you can take absent compelling reasons (caveat: not everyone at Osgoode is competitive enough to max their OCI schedule and you don't need 20 slots to interview with all of the "top" firms, though it certainly is nice to be able to do more rather than less and to interview with all the top large firms, mid sized firms, boutiques, and gov employers before definitively deciding what you want to do in your career)

Also, don't overlook clinics and workshop courses, which are a useful way to get some practical experience, figure out if you actually like the work before taking a job in that area, and can allow you to escape the usual exam/textbook-based courses. Osgoode offers a litigation workshop at Bennett Jones, a securities clinic run by one of its best known corporate law profs, a venture capital clinic with Wildeboer, ABLW I (corporate finance) and II (M&A) workshops at Davies, a small business clinic with Stikeman lawyers supervising you and Goodmans lawyers running a simeultaneous seminar, an IP clinic with placements in-house at technology companies, etc. Many corporate gunners elect to take multiple clinics.

[legallyblond23]

I have the (possibly erroneous) impression that Osgoode is more a commuter school and not as collegial. Views from Queens and Osgoode grads?  I definitely don't want to limit my chances on Bay street, but also want to have a great law school experience. 

[MyWifesBoyfriend]

30 minutes ago, legallyblond23 said:

Osgoode is more a commuter school and not as collegial

I'd also second this concern - I've heard rumors that Osgoode is competitive and 'colder' since it has a larger student body. If anyone could dispel this myth, it would be much appreciated since it's one of my top choices. 

[Turtles]

23 minutes ago, BurnerQuestion123 said:

I'd also second this concern - I've heard rumors that Osgoode is competitive and 'colder' since it has a larger student body. If anyone could dispel this myth, it would be much appreciated since it's one of my top choices. 

 

55 minutes ago, legallyblond23 said:

I have the (possibly erroneous) impression that Osgoode is more a commuter school and not as collegial. Views from Queens and Osgoode grads?  I definitely don't want to limit my chances on Bay street, but also want to have a great law school experience. 

Applicants come up with some of the weirdest things sometimes. What does it actually mean to be "colder" or "a commuter school" or "not as collegial"?

There are 300+ people in 1L. 300 more in 2L. 300 more in 3L. Your 1L section will have 70+ people who you have in every single one of your classes all-year (except your perspective course). Some of your 1L courses may have small-group seminars that meet separately too (e.g., 10-20 people out of your 70 person 1L course). You will inevitably meet and get to know lots of people. There are also tens of thousands of other undergrad and grad students around campus. And there's a vibrant student group and club scene. It would be pretty shocking if you came out of all that, meeting and getting to know so many people, and not make many friends, let alone find tons of people to help you along your law school journey. I get that people sometimes think that a bigger group can make you feel lost in the tide and you lose the opportunity to get to know people as well as you might in a small group, but you are stuck with your cohort all year... you will get to know them even if you don't want to. Everyone wants to make friends. Many are from afar and looking to build roots. The nice thing is that when there's so many people, it's pretty damn hard not to vibe with at least a few. 

If you can make friends, you will make friends. I think that's true of any school. If you are strongly introverted and aren't comfortable building bonds on your own initiative, I can kinda understand why you may favour a smaller law school like Queen's where your cohort is pressured to be fairly tight-knit. But if that was your concern, wouldn't you also worry that you might not vibe with your small group? Or that those connections may feel weak or artificial if it's forced and not due to having anything in common? Even in a 70 person section at Osgoode, no matter how diverse you are (age, background, interests, etc), you will likely be able to find many others to whom you relate. If you get involved in clubs and talk to people you sit next to, you should have no problem making tons of friends.

Many people live on campus (literally across the street) in university housing (search "Osgoode Chambers" in this forum or google). Many live on campus in private residences. Many live nearby. Many live by a subway station and commute in. Many live downtown Toronto. Many live at home in neighboring suburbs and drive in. Even those who commute in often linger in/around the law building, whether the library or common areas, to chitchat. Many will stick around or commute in for fun events. Often the best hangouts are those that happen downtown Toronto, since there's more to do than in the middle of nowhere (yes, I'm referring to both North York and Kingston).

Some people form close-knit study/friend groups and do everything together, everyday. Some people are more independent but still socialize widely across the school. Some are more selective.

Any school you attend will also have both nice people and assholes.

At the end of the day, I wouldn't give any weight to the perception of "collegiality" of a school. Many Osgoode students also got into Queens. Don't assume the average Queens student is somehow inherently nicer or more friendly. 

[MyWifesBoyfriend]

8 minutes ago, Turtles said:

Applicants come up with some of the weirdest things sometimes. What does it actually mean to be "colder" or "a commuter school" or "not as collegial"?

Great and informative post, and I really appreciate the time you took to respond. Could you expand on the smaller seminar groups/sections maybe? I've seen this floating around a bit, and it seems like a neat/unique class structure unique to Osgoode. 

I apologize if the question/concern seemed trivial - but I will caution that what may seem intuitive to a law student isn't intuitive to prospective students.

Edited November 28, 2023 by BurnerQuestion123
Changed 'applicant' to 'student'.

[legallyblond23]

So that is clearly an Osgoode perspective - any Queen's students want to weigh in? 

[BlockedQuebecois]

1 minute ago, legallyblond23 said:

So that is clearly an Osgoode perspective - any Queen's students want to weigh in? 

I bet they’re going to say their school is full of antisocial losers who don’t make eye contact. 

[Yogurt Baron]

17 minutes ago, Turtles said:

Applicants come up with some of the weirdest things sometimes.

Everything after this first sentence is absolutely spot on. Your social experience anywhere is more about you than anything else. York is just a bunch of buildings. It's not inherently "colder". It's not inherently anything. It's what you make of it.

But I will say, in fairness, that these two applicants really didn't "come up with" these particular ideas. "York is a commuter school" is out there in the zeitgeist and probably has been for longer than these two have been alive. If your knowledge of this stuff begins and ends with the cliches that float around out there - and why shouldn't it, if you're an applicant? - there's no shame in asking if there's any truth to the received wisdom.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Yogurt Baron

[legallyblond23]

Not sure why it's viewed as weird that applicants would be considering aspects about potential law schools, beyond which one might get them the best L2 job.  Frankly every law school particular generalizations made about them, I was simply asking for someone with actual experience to weigh in on what I have heard about Osgoode.  Clearly the social and cultural environment we will spend the next three years is relevant in the decision making process, and I for one am trying to get as much information as I can to determine the best place for me socially and academically.  I wasn't trying to offend all you Osgoode students/grads, I may well end up there (assuming I am lucky enough to have it as a choice) but I am not just picking a law school based on where I want to work in 4 years. 

[Dghoul]

22 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I bet they’re going to say their school is full of antisocial losers who don’t make eye contact. 

Aww man, I should have applied Queens. Could have found my team. 

[Chef Justice]

As someone that attends Queen's, it is definitely more about what you take from the experience than the size of the student body. On one hand, it's nice that Queen's has a smaller 1L class because it will likely be a bit easy to get to know people compared to if you're at Osgoode. Most Queen's students typically live a 10-15 minute walk from the law school and each other and even taking into consideration Turtles POV, it's still going to make a difference. However, it's not like you won't have a great social experience at Osgoode. You're going to meet lots of people through orientation and figure it out from there.

Another thing you may want to consider is being able to escape the law school environment. I really like Queen's and Kingston has its charm. I also really like my law friends. I've made some really close friends that I will keep in touch with later in life. Additionally, some of my close friends are some of the smartest people I met and are going to be excellent lawyers who I will call for consults down the line. However, I learned in 1L that not being able to escape from law from time to time will mentally drain you. Going to class for hours a day to then talk about caselaw or recently law topics is fun and everything, but I don't want to do it 24/7. It becomes refreshing to get away from the law talk and having people outside of law in general is good. In that sense, being in a bigger city at Osgoode may be to your advantage. But note, this really is a personal preference. In fact, pretty much everything said comes down to personal preference.

In regards to small groups, I'm pretty sure every law school has some form of it. I can't roll my eyes any harder when schools use it as a selling point. At Queen's, you will take all classes with the same 50ish people, except small sections and ILS, where it will be around 25 people. 

Queen's itself is beautiful. The campus lives up to expectations when people talk about how nice it is, and going by the water is a nice way to take a break from the stress of law school. 

TLDR; it's all vibes

Edited November 28, 2023 by Chef Justice

[Dinsdale]

The subway line finally going all the way to York (and beyond) has to have helped Osgoode shed its image as a "commuter" school, doesn't it?  By which I mean, a school people drive to because it (was) just so damn hard to get to, otherwise. To me that was a big geographic negative that no longer exists.  Much easier to get to campus now from downtown or other desirable places to live.

 

[Turtles]

1 hour ago, Yogurt Baron said:

But I will say, in fairness, that these two applicants really didn't "come up with" these particular ideas. "York is a commuter school" is out there in the zeitgeist and probably has been for longer than these two have been alive. If your knowledge of this stuff begins and ends with the cliches that float around out there - and why shouldn't it, if you're an applicant? - there's no shame in asking if there's any truth to the received wisdom.

I agree, it's a common challenge for applicants to meaningfully compare schools, know what is/isn't accurate about each, or really sort out nonsense from what matters. Typically it's based in some abstract word choice, like "collegial" or "commuter school", which somehow signals how you should feel about the school but without levelling a clear accusation -- campus is completely dead by 5pm? can't make friends? won't meet people? nobody will help you succeed? people will sabotage you? None of those are really the case (hence why nobody would say it clearly, it's too easily refuted), while to the extent there is any truth to them (e.g., there is less activity in the evening/night, maybe you can find some people who are self-centered pricks, etc) the same can be said for literally any school anywhere. It's a nonsensical exercise in trying to interpret air.

What's worse is when it's some "passed down" info from some questionable source ("my sister's friend's piano repairman told me UofT students rip the pages out of books, place voodoo curses on you so you can't sleep at night, and will even put rat poison in your coffee to prevent you from finishing your exam... so I took my 149 LSAT to a collegial school, TMU!!! there is perfect unity at TMU and everyone feels supported by one-another!!!!"). Sometimes applicants will go with absurd notions like that, or just buy into the school's marketing, not applying basic common sense.

Myths and feeling lost as an applicant are common, that's why I didn't say "you two guys are completely out to lunch" but rather "applicants come up with the weirdest things sometimes". There are countless other nonsensical myths in the zeitgeist. To make it clearer: as an applicant, be critical of what you hear from the zeitgeist and ask yourself what the hell it even means.

[MyWifesBoyfriend]

So would you say Osgoode is more temperate then? Maybe even warm? 

Edited November 28, 2023 by BurnerQuestion123

[legallyblond23]

3 hours ago, Turtles said:

 that's why I didn't say "you two guys are completely out to lunch" but rather "applicants come up with the weirdest things sometimes"

For the record both are kinda rude, but I am going to assume you are just having a bad day. 

[Naj]

5 hours ago, legallyblond23 said:

Clearly the social and cultural environment we will spend the next three years is relevant in the decision making process

We're telling you it's not, and Turtles gave you a pretty damn good answer as to why.  

[Monophobia]

Practically all JD programs divide their 1L cohorts into smaller sections in some manner. So every school is more or less equally conducive to creating some basic 'collegiality' in 1L. There's nothing inherent about any school that would make them substantially more conducive than any other.

Every year a fresh batch of 200+ students enters each school. It's real life. Some people are nice and some are assholes. It's not like each adcom selects applicants based on who they think is the nicest person. Some cohorts may be nicer or more collegial than others on pure chance. And you will likely not have the opportunity to interact with every person from every section, let alone with every person from upper years. So why would you take someone's word for it that their school is somehow more 'collegial' than others? Especially from someone who's already graduated who has no idea how 'nice' the current/new students might be?

I might think the people I've spoken to within my cohort are wonderful, but that says absolutely nothing about your potential cohort. Individual perceptions of student culture are so limited that I can't help but question their usefulness. You should care far more about how each school might help you achieve your career goals than individual perceptions of current student bodies.

What others have already said about OCIs is true. What I'll add as a Queen's student is that the prison law clinic is stellar if your goal is criminal law. Queen's Legal Aid also accepts 1L students, which is a great way to dip your toe into some more practical experience as early as your first semester in law school. 

[legallyblond23]

1 hour ago, Monophobia said:

 

I might think the people I've spoken to within my cohort are wonderful, but that says absolutely nothing about your potential cohort. Individual perceptions of student culture are so limited that I can't help but question their usefulness. You should care far more about how each school might help you achieve your career goals than individual perceptions of current student bodies.

 

Thanks for your perspective, this is helpful.