Still Struggling

[uoftearsalumna]

This may be interpreted as a woe is me/feel sorry for me post, and that's fine, just expressing how I feel 1 month post-recruit.

I am still struggling. This post-recruit search is going horribly. Struck out with one of the full service that hire post-recruit, been setting up informational coffee chats with prospective employers for "career planning" that have gone no where, and i just had the worst interview i could have possibly had with a small group. 

On top of that, I can't compel myself to study. Exams are around the corner and I feel incredibly screwed. I put all my eggs into the recruit basket to get nothing, and now when im trying to find work post-recruit, still nothing. I know grades matter for laterallying, but I am seeking some security to at least have a job in the future, but i feel at this rate i'll be unemployed. 

I don't know what to do. I'm trying therapy. I've started drinking. I have fantasies of dropping out as I would have never signed up for this if I knew this was the outcome. 

To anyone else feeling this way, I feel for you and I'd like to be here for you If I can, please reach out to me ... that's why I wrote this post. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by uoftearsalumna

[WhoKnows]

1 minute ago, uoftearsalumna said:

I'm trying therapy. I've started drinking.

So, stick to the former. Cut the latter. Now. Starting drinking because you're depressed and overwhelmed is a road to dependence that you do not want to be on. I know plenty of folks who have tried to find answers and comfort at the bottom of a bottle - at times its been me - all that's ever there is more hurt and questions. 

I've been where you are and it sucks, but the only way through is through. Get some help, chat with your doctor if you need to. You need to take care of yourself and your grades as best you can. You may not find a job for 2L summer, and you may be back at the old summer job that makes you feel you aren't making progress. That's okay. You will find articling, you will get on track, and a few years from now you will look back on this time and be amazed at how far you've come. 

[chaboywb]

Don't worry about striking out in the post-OCI recruit. It's a very small process that only a handful of students find opportunities through. I know it feels like the second major blow in a short period of time but it really isn't anything to be concerned about.

You need to focus on your exams now and for the remainder of 2L. I hate to say it, but these grades are going to be very important for you next year and potentially post-articling. Don't let your issues compound through substance abuse.

Don't worry about 2L summer at a firm. Apply if you see any opportunities but I'd suggest trying to get an RA position in an interesting area of law. Something that will help you stand out next year.

I know many, many successful big law lawyers who didn't have a 2L job but got positions through the articling recruit or other avenues. You will be 100% fine. Tons of opportunities are going to become available, they just won't necessarily be thrown in your face like OCIs were.

Your feelings are valid but it will get better.

[uoftearsalumna]

Thanks all 🙂 

[canuckfanatic]

This feels like a good opportunity to re-post a chart I made a few years ago: 

Your worth is not related to your success at OCIs or any other recruitment. 

[Jean-Ralphio Saperstein]

Still job-searching myself and wishing I could change the things I did in 1L. It feels like everyone has a position secured for the summer. Sometimes I look back at my old posts on this forum and smile at how quickly things have changed. Hope I'll do that with this one too. 

We'll figure things out eventually, OP. 

[GoatDuck]

4 hours ago, Jean-Ralphio Saperstein said:

wishing I could change the things I did in 1L

I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. Any chance you’d share what you wish you’d change? Unless it’s just personal things that wouldn’t apply to current/future 1Ls.

[uoftearsalumna]

6 hours ago, GoatDuck said:

I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. Any chance you’d share what you wish you’d change? Unless it’s just personal things that wouldn’t apply to current/future 1Ls.

I'd say try to focus on your grades as much as possible. Grades matter a lot for the 2L recruit. You can still make it far in the recruit with average grades, like I did, but looking back, limited options played to my detriment, which stemmed from average grades. There are people with 1 in-firm who will get the job, some with 5 who will get no offer. But generally speaking, the more the likelier, and more will come with good grades. You don't have to be Dean's list. Try to get Bs as your lowest grade, throw in a couple B+, 1 A, and you're set (note this is a minimum distribution, always strive for the best you can possibly achieve, but if this is what it is, you're fine. I wish I had that distribution - perhaps my outcome would be different).

With that distribution, you'll hit almost 10 OCIs, if not more, if you apply to the main approx 30 full-service bay st firms, imo. Everyone has their own conception of how many OCIs you'll get based on grades and from what school and so forth... bottom line: get that distribution at any school, you'll get OCIs. Sure, someone from Osgoode may get slightly more than Windsor, but with that distribution at Windsor, you still have a solid chance imo... as I met ppl with that distribution who had a full slate of in-firms during the recruit from ottawa and windsor and TMU - take my anecdote how you will; I don't think the disparities in school are a huge factor if your gpa is above the curve.

Also when the time comes, apply broadly. Happy to share more of my reflections. I've learned a lot about what I feel I did wrong and how I would have played the game a lot differently, both in 1L and during the recruit. I wish you luck luck and success! 

Edited December 28, 2023 by uoftearsalumna

[Constantine]

Same boat as you sadly; even had a disaster post-OCI interview myself. Hard to not resign yourself to bitterness and anger honestly. But at the end of the day we have to keep trudging on until we land something. I need a job for the summer (I am poor) and I'll take any offer. 

[Bob Jones]

On 11/30/2023 at 1:36 PM, uoftearsalumna said:

This may be interpreted as a woe is me/feel sorry for me post, and that's fine, just expressing how I feel 1 month post-recruit.

I am still struggling. This post-recruit search is going horribly. Struck out with one of the full service that hire post-recruit, been setting up informational coffee chats with prospective employers for "career planning" that have gone no where, and i just had the worst interview i could have possibly had with a small group. 

On top of that, I can't compel myself to study. Exams are around the corner and I feel incredibly screwed. I put all my eggs into the recruit basket to get nothing, and now when im trying to find work post-recruit, still nothing. I know grades matter for laterallying, but I am seeking some security to at least have a job in the future, but i feel at this rate i'll be unemployed. 

I don't know what to do. I'm trying therapy. I've started drinking. I have fantasies of dropping out as I would have never signed up for this if I knew this was the outcome. 

To anyone else feeling this way, I feel for you and I'd like to be here for you If I can, please reach out to me ... that's why I wrote this post. 

Sorry to hear about your situation. Hopefully things have started to turn around. 

I assume you're referring to the 2L OCI recruit? If so, believe me there's more to life then which firm you summered at. If you're goal is "big law" it is always possible to lateral in after a few years of good experience, particularly from a mid-size/notable boutique. It's not as easy as the summer-articling-associate route, but it's possible. Further, there's A LOT out there besides "big law." And lastly, your summer job will have next to 0 importance and implication on your overall career as a lawyer. 

Keep your head up, we've all been there, and don't get caught up on this silly rat race law schools try to push us through. 

[Diplock]

This will be the short version of a point I've made many other times. But no one who is struggling here has even mentioned an area of practice or legal work they are interested in. I keep hearing about full service firms in this discussion and nothing else. The reason grades matter so much in that context is if you are bringing no interest or background in an area of law, and you just want a job doing whatever for whoever will pay you, then grades are all that can or will distinguish you. In other area of practice - stuff outside the OCI recruit generally - grades matter less because the rest matters more.

Right now, you cant control your grades in the past. But you can stop making the mistake of thinking full service firms who just want the best interchangeable parts available are the entire employment market. So I'll ask again. Apart from just a job, any job, in law...what is it you actually want to do?

This question is for anyone struggling here btw. Not just the OP.

[uoftearsalumna]

On 1/6/2024 at 2:07 PM, Diplock said:

This will be the short version of a point I've made many other times. But no one who is struggling here has even mentioned an area of practice or legal work they are interested in. I keep hearing about full service firms in this discussion and nothing else. The reason grades matter so much in that context is if you are bringing no interest or background in an area of law, and you just want a job doing whatever for whoever will pay you, then grades are all that can or will distinguish you. In other area of practice - stuff outside the OCI recruit generally - grades matter less because the rest matters more.

Right now, you cant control your grades in the past. But you can stop making the mistake of thinking full service firms who just want the best interchangeable parts available are the entire employment market. So I'll ask again. Apart from just a job, any job, in law...what is it you actually want to do?

This question is for anyone struggling here btw. Not just the OP.

You raise a valid point. All of 1L I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do, I’ve only realized that now in 2L: I enjoy litigation much more than corporate, but my naivety led me to believe the full service firms predominantly practiced corporate, thus I felt I needed to orient myself as a corporate-focused applicant. I wish I played 1L so much differently, but as you said, can’t change the past.
 

but since we’re on the topic, I didn’t realize any of the above until just a few months ago, so why I feel let down about not landing full service is that I now do not have to access to a setting where so many practice areas are at my finger tips to learn and try as a student, in order to possibly cultivate a practice on my own. Sure, what I’m saying isn’t as easy as it sounds (ie rotational structures vs non rotation), but what I’m saying is largely true; I’ve spoken to quite a few people who have assisted lawyers at full service firms in various practice areas I never heard of that only that firm specialized in, which they wouldn’t have had the option to try but for them having that job. I also know a partner at a seven sister firm who wouldn’t be practicing municipal and land planning law but for landing at that full service firm in the recruit, as those opportunities don’t come by often (as an example). 

What’s primarily outside of the recruit is niche boutique firms that specialize in one or two areas. What if I don’t like those practice areas? Do I risk leaving and finding another job when I could potentially have a summer and articling opportunity lined up so I can have the pressure of maintaining solid grades off my shoulders… How does switching practice areas even work? Can I go from articling at a boutique in an area I’m not so interested in to a boutique/in house in the practice area I’m interested in - or am I limited to what I articled in? These are all rhetorical questions, but I am confident I speak on behalf of many who feel as to why we feel let down by not getting full service. 
 

But, I’ve realized the only way through is through. I’ll take my chances at a niche firm cause I, like of all of us, need to get licensed. Am I disadvantaged than my peers at full service? Who’s to say? I feel I am, for the reasons above, but perhaps that’s my issue to deal with. Overall, I’ll conclude with the fact that all of what I’ve said are concerns that not a lot of people talk about, and I critically fault the law school system for not addressing/acknowledging any of what I’ve said. Once the 2L recruit is over, it’s 1L, then the cycle continues w/o accounting for the other 70-75% who didn’t land.  It’s really, really sad. 

Edited January 9 by uoftearsalumna

[Diplock]

2 hours ago, uoftearsalumna said:

You raise a valid point. All of 1L I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do, I’ve only realized that now in 2L: I enjoy litigation much more than corporate, but my naivety led me to believe the full service firms predominantly practiced corporate, thus I felt I needed to orient myself as a corporate-focused applicant. I wish I played 1L so much differently, but as you said, can’t change the past.
 

but since we’re on the topic, I didn’t realize any of the above until just a few months ago, so why I feel let down about not landing full service is that I now do not have to access to a setting where so many practice areas are at my finger tips to learn and try as a student, in order to possibly cultivate a practice on my own. Sure, what I’m saying isn’t as easy as it sounds (ie rotational structures vs non rotation), but what I’m saying is largely true; I’ve spoken to quite a few people who have assisted lawyers at full service firms in various practice areas I never heard of that only that firm specialized in, which they wouldn’t have had the option to try but for them having that job. I also know a partner at a seven sister firm who wouldn’t be practicing municipal and land planning law but for landing at that full service firm in the recruit, as those opportunities don’t come by often (as an example). 

What’s primarily outside of the recruit is niche boutique firms that specialize in one or two areas. What if I don’t like those practice areas? Do I risk leaving and finding another job when I could potentially have a summer and articling opportunity lined up so I can have the pressure of maintaining solid grades off my shoulders… How does switching practice areas even work? Can I go from articling at a boutique in an area I’m not so interested in to a boutique/in house in the practice area I’m interested in - or am I limited to what I articled in? These are all rhetorical questions, but I am confident I speak on behalf of many who feel as to why we feel let down by not getting full service. 
 

But, I’ve realized the only way through is through. I’ll take my chances at a niche firm cause I, like of all of us, need to get licensed. Am I disadvantaged than my peers at full service? Who’s to say? I feel I am, for the reasons above, but perhaps that’s my issue to deal with. Overall, I’ll conclude with the fact that all of what I’ve said are concerns that not a lot of people talk about, and I critically fault the law school system for not addressing/acknowledging any of what I’ve said. Once the 2L recruit is over, it’s 1L, then the cycle continues w/o accounting for the other 70-75% who didn’t land.  It’s really, really sad. 

You'll forgive me for taking just a fraction of what you've said, avoiding the rest, and taking a kick at you. But it's a kick that's meant to motivate you in the right direction.

You have said, essentially, two things. First, you seem to want to insist that even now you are only interested in large, full service firms that will offer you rotations over a variety of practice areas and that you don't want to commit to any specific areas of practice or interest at more niche employers. And second, you fault law school for not preparing you better.

Here's the problem. Full service firms that offer these kinds of taste-testing are, quite simply, only a fraction of the employment market. You've now been told that, even if it wasn't clear to you sooner, and you don't want to adjust your approach based on that information. So what exactly are you faulting law schools for? Even when provided with better information you're still just going down the same blind alley that generations of law students have raced down in the past. I mean, I'm going to state the radically obvious here, but even if law school could better inform you about what to expect on the employment market (and they probably could) they can't actually change the employment market to better suit you.

So, I'll repeat my advice. Stop trying to defer the point in time when you stake out an interest in something. Stop waiting for someone to employ you first, pay you a lot of money, and then lead you by the hand through a curated tour of the many options that are before you. Whether or not that's a more desirable way to enter the legal marketplace is debatable. What isn't debatable is that it's not the only, or even the most common, way that students enter the legal marketplace. And if you are determined to focus on only that to the detriment of other options out there, it's really something you are doing to yourself at this point.

Hope that helps. It's meant to.

[LMP]

3 hours ago, uoftearsalumna said:

You raise a valid point. All of 1L I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do, I’ve only realized that now in 2L: I enjoy litigation much more than corporate, but my naivety led me to believe the full service firms predominantly practiced corporate, thus I felt I needed to orient myself as a corporate-focused applicant. I wish I played 1L so much differently, but as you said, can’t change the past.
 

but since we’re on the topic, I didn’t realize any of the above until just a few months ago, so why I feel let down about not landing full service is that I now do not have to access to a setting where so many practice areas are at my finger tips to learn and try as a student, in order to possibly cultivate a practice on my own. Sure, what I’m saying isn’t as easy as it sounds (ie rotational structures vs non rotation), but what I’m saying is largely true; I’ve spoken to quite a few people who have assisted lawyers at full service firms in various practice areas I never heard of that only that firm specialized in, which they wouldn’t have had the option to try but for them having that job. I also know a partner at a seven sister firm who wouldn’t be practicing municipal and land planning law but for landing at that full service firm in the recruit, as those opportunities don’t come by often (as an example). 

What’s primarily outside of the recruit is niche boutique firms that specialize in one or two areas. What if I don’t like those practice areas? Do I risk leaving and finding another job when I could potentially have a summer and articling opportunity lined up so I can have the pressure of maintaining solid grades off my shoulders… How does switching practice areas even work? Can I go from articling at a boutique in an area I’m not so interested in to a boutique/in house in the practice area I’m interested in - or am I limited to what I articled in? These are all rhetorical questions, but I am confident I speak on behalf of many who feel as to why we feel let down by not getting full service. 
 

But, I’ve realized the only way through is through. I’ll take my chances at a niche firm cause I, like of all of us, need to get licensed. Am I disadvantaged than my peers at full service? Who’s to say? I feel I am, for the reasons above, but perhaps that’s my issue to deal with. Overall, I’ll conclude with the fact that all of what I’ve said are concerns that not a lot of people talk about, and I critically fault the law school system for not addressing/acknowledging any of what I’ve said. Once the 2L recruit is over, it’s 1L, then the cycle continues w/o accounting for the other 70-75% who didn’t land.  It’s really, really sad. 

You said you like litigation, let's start there. What about it appeals to you? That sort of information can really help you find what practice area you like. In addition, consider what sort of lifestyle and workplace you'd want. 

All of that should come before questions about switching firms or practice areas. Otherwise you'll find yourself in the same situation.